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300cc for first motorcycle.

Eh...there's a HUGE difference between a Ninja 250/300 and a Rebel 250 powerwise...
 
ariacode said:
I'm really glad I started on a bike with ABS. It let me test limits (wittingly or not) without testing my gear.
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Unless you bought a high-end bike with "cornering" ABS, you probably had less protection than you thought...

Maddevill said:
Eh...there's a HUGE difference between a Ninja 250/300 and a Rebel 250 powerwise...
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When you sit in a pile of crap, does the size of the pile really matter? :laughing
 
Whammy said:
Wow the old argument continues...
New rider not much experience everyone is pushing him to a bigger bike.
Getting bored and wheelies have no bearing on learning how to ride, and not getting in over your head,
But hey its a different generation.
Seen plenty of newbs get that bigger new bike and days later they are on the mend, and the bike is trashed.
Didn't we have one recently who thought he could run with the bigger dogs and totaled his kawi?
I also had a friend who bought a versys 650 and wrecked it immediately after buying it not 60 yards from the dealer.
reminded me of the Pee Wee Herman wreck. I know it was bad, but it was also funny as shit because many of our friends told him not to get it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzVAx1n1QFw
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Second this. To the OP, you don't even ride yet - and you're considering if it will be boring. A new rider will have lots to learn, regardless of what bike they decide to go with. If you are in this for the long haul, there will be plenty of bikes and plenty of time to choose from. Many of us who have ridden thousands of miles have traded hands on many bikes, and still have plenty we are lusting after.

Whatever you go with, I doubt you will out skill it a year from now.
 
NoTraffic said:
...Whatever you go with, I doubt you will out skill it a year from now.
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I've been riding and racing for 45 plus years. My Ninja 250 is 6 years old now, it could use a better shock, better forks, and good tires but I'm a long way from outgrowing it. Just saying as a guy with over 45 years of continuous experience on the street.
 
MysterYvil said:
I don't agree that "there's never a reason."

Buying new pretty much ensures that you're not getting a ride that's been beat on or neglected. The peace of mind is definitely worth something.

Ms. was on a budget, so she bought used motos. I spent a fair bit of time troubleshooting and wrenching them. They were both good buys, but a little old, a little hard-used. (She's an amazing rider but a disaster as a mechanic.)

When Mrs. was a new rider we discussed drops and scuffs. She preferred that they all be marks that *she* put on her ride, so she bought a new moto.

To each their own.
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Very different definition of "used". We bought a 2 year old bike with 4K on it. Easy enough to check oil, basic mechanicals, test ride and you're good. Odds are we can sell it for what we paid. She's put about 2.5K on it since and no issues.
You buy a "vintage" or well-used bike all bets are off.
 
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russ69 said:
I've been riding and racing for 45 plus years. My Ninja 250 is 6 years old now, it could use a better shock, better forks, and good tires but I'm a long way from outgrowing it. Just saying as a guy with over 45 years of continuous experience on the street.
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I've been riding street longer than I'm willing to admit, and I really couldn't stand riding the ninja 250 I bought a few years ago. For experienced riders it's more of a preference thing.
Just today I was railing around on my xrl (which is no speed machine) thinking to myself how that was more than enough for running fast on the street and how things like my literbike is simply overkill.
 
ariacode said:
that's a shitty assumption and a shitty thing to say.
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No, that's just a fact. Don't agree? Show me an entry-level bike with an ABS system that operates when cornering or put forth an argument that newbies are most likely to "test limits" with the bike completely vertical...
 
wakked1 said:
Very different definition of "used". We bought a 2 year old bike with 4K on it. Easy enough to check oil, basic mechanicals, test ride and you're good. Odds are we can sell it for what we paid. She's put about 2.5K on it since and no issues.
You buy a "vintage" or well-used bike all bets are off.
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Very different than what? Both used motos I referred to (a Kawi and a Triumph) were 3-4 years old, low mileage. They still had issues and needed things like batteries, servicing, tires, et cetera.
 
I am relatively new rider myself, with roughly 2 years of riding experience. I started on a 2013 Ninja 300, and have since purchased a 2007 SV650, which is a similar bike to a Ninja 650. I did not sell the Ninja 300 and still use it to commute to SF (because I don't want my SV to get stolen or tipped over when parked on some hill), also I plan to use the Ninja for track days.
Here are my thoughts: I would recommend starting on a Ninja 300, not because you won't be able to handle a bigger bike necessarily, but because a Ninja 300 (as well as other bikes like R3, CBR250, or KTM390) will help you become a better rider faster.
The 300 is an awesome bike in its own right, on paper it might not seem all that lighter than a 650, but subjectively it feels a ton lighter, I don't know why, but if I fire up my Ninja after riding an SV for a bit, it almost feels like jumping on a bicycle, in a good way though. Because of this light and flick-able feeling the Ninja is a great bike to learn the dynamics of taking turns, which is no small feat on a motorcycle, and when you do learn these dynamics, it continues to be fun. Speaking for myself, when riding through the twisties, like Page Mill Road or Pescadero Road, I am pretty confident that I am going to be faster on a Ninja 300 than my SV 650, despite the fact that SV 650 has double the horsepower.
Despite the lack of horsepower the Ninja 300 is perfectly capable bike for commuting and even longer distance riding: I regularly ride to SF on 101, and before the SV I used to take it on longer rides, like to Santa Barbara, it can cruise at 80mph with occasional spurts of up to 100mph if needed, it will be buzzy, but it can do it. I even have a friend who rode his Ninja 250 from Chicago to SF, so there is that if you were worried about it.
Also, like many have said, you will most likely drop your first bike, probably more than once. It might be something stupid, while maneuvering around your drive way, or it might be something entirely not related to your riding experience, but it will most likely happen. Sure, maybe you will not drop your bike, ever, but it is not a bad idea to prepare for this by starting out on something that is cheap, already beat up, and won’t ruin your day if it does happen. My Ninja 300 was a salvaged title because the previous owner dropped it, and after doing a few mods and dropping it twice (not my fault), I can probably sell it for exactly what I bought it for, maybe even more.
You should also consider that Ninja 300 is a very forgiving bike due to its size. It might not look like it is much smaller than a 650, but it is, trust me on that one. It is a lot easier to flat foot or recover from a near drop.
Like someone has already said, the 650 makes its power in a very different fashion then a Ninja: it has a lot of torque at very low rpm. For example, my SV 650 makes about the same amount of peak torque as the super sport bikes, only at lower RPM, which means you can surprise the shit out of yourself if you accidently twist the throttle (and this will happen to you), or if you are just not very smooth with throttle inputs in general. On the other hand the Ninja 300 is similar to super sports in a sense that you have to rev the hell out of it to get to the sweet spot of the power band.
Last thought: Ninja 300 has a slipper clutch, the only 300 bike with that option as far I know. I never really thought much of this feature until I downshifted into 1st gear mid turn on my SV650.
 
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How do you have an M1 and have never ridden a motorcycle?

Don't you either have to take the MTC or take the written test and a riding test at the DMV? Either of those options require you to actually ride a motorcycle.
 
It still amazes me when people say you will get bored of a (650). It has the power and handling to keep even experienced riders happy. People make 60hp sound like its anemic or something. Tell you what. Go to sears point and take turn 1 -full throttle- on a ninja 650. If you can do that. Thennn maybe its time to think about moving up to a bigger bike.
 
fubar929 said:
No, that's just a fact. Don't agree? Show me an entry-level bike with an ABS system that operates when cornering or put forth an argument that newbies are most likely to "test limits" with the bike completely vertical...
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I'm not getting into whatever other pissing contest you're trying to start.

It was a shitty assumption because you are wrong that I "had less protection than I thought" and it was a shitty thing to say because you went out of your way to talk down to a stranger on the internet about how they don't understand (non-cornering) ABS.
 
Burg-Mann said:
It still amazes me when people say you will get bored of a (650). It has the power and handling to keep even experienced riders happy. People make 60hp sound like its anemic or something. Tell you what. Go to sears point and take turn 1 -full throttle- on a ninja 650. If you can do that. Thennn maybe its time to think about moving up to a bigger bike.
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I wouldn't go that far, but I am old enough to remember that the first generation ninjas were considered "death machines" because they were so fast etc. probably had about 60rwhp, were heavy and had rap suspension by today's standards.
 
fubar929 said:
My experience, working for 5 years as an on-track instructor for one of the largest track-day providers in California, suggests that the opposite is true. I think that you, and everyone else who trots out this ridiculous adage, are confusing racing with street riding. If you want to be fast on the racetrack, then it can help to start on a smaller-displacement bike. Just keep in mind that when racers say "small displacement" they usually mean 125cc GP bikes which have modern frames, slick tires, great suspension and great brakes. Every n00b I've seen riding a Ninja 250 at a trackday has ended up struggling to make progress. And who can blame them? The bike has a crappy frame, crappy tires, crappy brakes, and a crappy engine. I've been riding for 20 years and wouldn't want to trust that bike, so I can't imagine how a newbie would ever get comfortable...

I've ridden the Ninja 250 on road and track and I've also ridden the Honda Rebel 250 on the street. If you're certain you will never need to ride on the freeway, then they're mediocre choices for a beginner bike. If you'll ever ride on the freeway (and, let's face it, most of us don't have the patience to ride everywhere on city streets) then these bikes are awful. On the Bay Area's fast moving freeways, these bikes just don't have enough top-end acceleration. Just look at the 1/4-mile times for these bikes: the Rebel does the quarter in 17.86 seconds with a trap speed of 68mph and the Ninja takes 15.58 seconds with a trap speed of 82mph. This is the sort of performance than makes every freeway on-ramp into a sphincter-tightening experience! Which is why buying something like a Ninja 650, SV650 or FZ-07 makes much more sense: these bikes have enough horsepower to take you anywhere in the Bay Area, yet not so much power that they're likely to overwhelm a new rider. They'll also offer better tire options, improved suspension, and better brakes which all serve to improve rider confidence.

BTW, I'd love to hear a list of riding skills that are easier to learn on a Ninja 250 than they are on a Ninja 650...
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Guess you missed the bit where I said 340lbs being too much for a first bike, eh? You do realize that an N250 is well over 340lbs, right? If you are going to respond with out of context conclusions doesn't that just invalidate what you are saying? Still even in your own text you are agreeing that smaller bikes make for better learning.

Additionally, where have I said that the N250 is a good starter bike, or even a good bike? I regularly call it a pig. I've even been published in City Bike with my feelings that the N250 makes for a poor first bike. Shit the damn thing weighs the same as my 899. I also don't like the Rebel--mostly because of the foot placement, but for other reasons too (with regards to a first bike). Its low seat hight though sells a lot of bikes to vertically challenged riders--that's something that should be accounted for by the marketing staff when designing (some) bikes for new riders.

fubar929 said:
You realize that freeways are far safer than city streets, right? Everyone is going the same direction, you almost never have to deal with driveways or cross traffic, everyone is going about the same speed, etc. In my experience, you're far more likely to have problems on city streets. Given the number of people I see running red lights or turning left directly into the path of motorcyclists, I'd much rather ride on the freeway than most city streets. Of course deserted mountain roads are my favorite place to ride... but getting to most of them involves freeway riding.
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Have you been following this thread? It's in direct conflict with your conclusions. The reason being that what you are doing is confusing frequency with severity. I made clear references above that the freeway should not be employed by new riders because the incidences are quite likely to be catastrophic, and you can't learn from being dead. New riders don't have the tools to deal with issues that arise on the freeway. Those have to be developed, and you don't get taught any of that in the CMSP or MSF training. It's a huge difference from the parking lot on which they noodle around. You'd have to have a pretty hard cranium not to get that concept.

fubar929 said:
And are those people riding their 50cc scooters on a fast-moving freeways filled with aggressive assholes who routinely drive at 20+mph faster that the posted speed limit? Or are they riding in crowded urban environments where everyone else is also on a 50cc scooter?
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Again a new rider for VERY OBVIOUS REASONS should not be on the freeway. Additionally there are plenty of non-scooter motos in the 50cc and up classes. Ones with decent brakes, suspension, design, etc. Most of them are not sold in the States currently, but that has a lot more to do with the fact that many people that buy bikes in the States are compensating. Hell Suzuki should just rename the GSXR the Compensator.

The riding community is aging out. The average age of a first time BMW buyer is 57 years old! That's the average. Meaning that there are some pretty old fucks buying a BMW for the first time. Moto sales are down because we are not properly cultivating new riders. To do that we need small bikes. Bikes that will allow the riders to develop in to good riders. Small bikes will do that faster and better than any other bikes out there.

As for ABS. It's still a fairly recent development in bikes. Many of the newer bikes, even the small ones, now have options for ABS. As for cornering ABS many of the high end bikes don't even have it, so to assert that a small bike without it is lacking in the way that you have in this thread is really disingenuous. It would have been a lot better had you explained what it is, and why it would be nice to see it implemented across the line of motos, rather than just on the high end bikes.

From memory cornering ABS only came out in 2013 on bikes, and there are still very few that have it today--usually the top of the line bikes. But like most tech it eventually shows up down the line. Especially on Euro bikes where in 2005 the 50cc bikes were showing up with inverted forks, radial brakes, braided lines, etc. Things still lacking on a lot of Hondas even in 2017.

There are some pretty nice starter bikes out there for sale. We as a community need to advocate that they be sold to new riders in our country, and we need to support those riders starting out with a proper non-freeway legal bike. All this rubbish about starting on a 650 just causes people with interest to quit at the first sign of issues. That doesn't help or promote our community. All you have to do is look at the numbers to see where it's going. This fucked up compensating mindset had done its damage long enough. If you love this sport it behooves you to wake up, and start fostering a responsible introduction to motos.

Tuono125_2017.jpg
 
ToraTora said:
Guess you missed the bit where I said 340lbs being too much for a first bike, eh?
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Yes, I saw that. Given how few street-oriented motorcycles meet your 340-pound weight limit, it seems like a stupid idea to me. Especially in the Bay Area, where car drivers are frequently: 1) aggressive, and 2) traveling much faster than the posted speed limit.

Have you been following this thread? It's in direct conflict with your conclusions.
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That thread is about someone who died while lane-splitting past a big rig during rush hour. A very different situation from, say, riding on the freeway on a weekend. I'm pretty sure any newbie would realize there's a difference between these two situations and plan accordingly. My second ride on my first (415-pound) bike was down Highway 280 one Saturday morning. Much less drama riding down 280 at 9am than when I got back to my neighborhood and had some geezer in a 1980's Cadillac turn left in front of me 1/4-mile from my house...

Again a new rider for VERY OBVIOUS REASONS should not be on the freeway. Additionally there are plenty of non-scooter motos in the 50cc and up classes. Ones with decent brakes, suspension, design, etc. Most of them are not sold in the States currently, but that has a lot more to do with the fact that many people that buy bikes in the States are compensating.
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So it sounds like your recommendation is that people who want to ride motorcycles in the USA should move to a foreign country, buy a small-displacement motorcycle, and never ride it in the freeways? :laughing

Sorry, it's time to pull your head out of the sand and recognize reality for what it is: the vast majority of bikes weigh 400+ pounds and, in the Bay Area at least, freeway travel is nearly inevitable. Buying a bike that's inappropriate to local conditions doesn't do a newbie any favors. It's the equivalent of teaching someone to swim in a kiddie pool, then dropping them into the middle of a Class V rapid...
 
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