Smog Test- Deceptive Practice?

[Idontdotrix]

thank you for explaining the difference. I'm technically challenged when it comes to this stuff.
YES please, just tell me how to go about it w/ either of you. MANY thanks, Im gonna owe some peeps some dinner

[OldFatGuy]

Danni,
If you give me the specifics of your van, I can check my price on your O2 sensor. For kicks, I looked up a 2000 Chevy 1500 van with a 5.7L engine and depending on which sensor you need, prices ranged from $34.00 to $62.00

[racercosmo]

Tom, it's a 2000 GMC Safari, 4.3

[OldFatGuy]

$84.29

It's a little more expensive than the ones I looked up before.

That one is NOT universal, BTW. It's plug and play.

[Marlowe]

They should have said something; they can't pass it with the MIL lit, even if it doesn't represent an emissions problem (and it almost never does), just a sensor problem.

I had to replace a DPFE sensor and an O2 sensor at various times to pass emissions.

As others have noted, swapping a sensor is really no big deal. All the ones I've replaced or helped others with have taken 5-10 minutes and cost between $60 and $85.

Here in AZ the smog testing stations are state run, and charge just under $20. It seems to be such a racket for some of the test and test/repair stations in CA.

[Hundo]

I actually hesitated about putting this info up before, but fark it I just got back from the pub -- yes, a REAL pub! --, and am now liquored-up enough to spill:

Teh state of cal-eeee-four-nyaaaahh MANDATES that all smog test stations perform the entire smog check, regardless of whether the MIL is visibly on, or not, at teh beginning of the test.

Teh only thing that can -- legally -- cause a tech to stop a smog is equipment failure, whether that be the dyno or the vehicle itself. BOTH of these, technically, result in a failed smog (even if the readout says "Aborted Test", the BAR considers them teh same, at least from the station's POV). You will only be culpable for the payment if it is your vehicle that shat on the dyno. Or peed. Definition of shat: parts falling off; peed: any single, or any combination of, vehicular-fluids jizzing onto the dyno. For teh life of me I do not know why the BAR does not refer to these incidents with the correct technical terminology of shat and peed/jizzed, respectively. Digressing further, the term "cunt-hair" should be accepted as an accurate descriptor of measurement when referring to a very small gap of indeterminable distance due to one's not really giving a fark.

My father and his other techs have been fined numerous times by refusing to take a customer's money (scummy bastids were really undercover EPA/BAR f*ckers) for a guaranteed failed smog. They, instead, offered up diagnostic services after a pre-test (a full-simulation test that is not reported to teh BAR) and that's when the EPA/BAR badges came out and the fines began to be tallied. Legally (not morally) they shoud have smogged teh vehicles and let the results be what they were (regular fail, or gross-polluter fail) and THEN offer up diagnostic services. My dad, being the nice SOB that he is (love ya pops!), tried to SAVE the customer money in the event that it may fail the test as a Gross Polluter (read: LOTS more $).

Don't blame it 100% on the mechanics. Even when they/we are doing our jobs (yes, smogging a car with a MIL light on is, by law, our duty and job) it seems to the average consumer as if we are bending 'em over and giving their arses what for. This being said you are indeed getting a high estimate -- in my opinion -- for the trans. work.

Good luck w/ getting the work performed and please continue to post the results of your actions so that the good peoples of teh BARF can give advice to help in teh process.

[Idontdotrix]

that still doesnt answer an original Question of why even BEGIN a test when the light is on when they take the keys to check the mileage?
if it comes on once a test is begun, I could understand not being able to stop but they knew prior to ever putting it into Park in the garage it would fail regardless of the emissions bc of that light.
[B]I feel like its a rip off to consumers that they have no information posted anywhere at the shop or on the state site that says you're a guaranteed fail for a CEL. [/B if I had known that I wouldn't have paid money to get the test done until I knew what the problems were! i could have instead used the money somewhere to get it checked out and have problems fixed within the time I'm allowed for the temp tags. now I'm under the gun time wise since DMV doesn't have to give me an extended temp. they can but they are not required to.
it makes no sense, and it doesn't instill any confidence in the shops conducting the tests.
ppl with cars kicking out loads of fumes are aware they are likely going to fail. i went in with the expectation that my vehicle emissions would pass easily. which they did.

[cycle61]

Originally Posted by ElHundo

5) Hope this helps you get the battlevan back on the road.

I can't decide whether to be offended or flattered by the theft of the "battle" prefix here.

[Idontdotrix]

me either she's a good girl, if a bit of a fuel whore, but it can't be helped, she's usually loaded down with show equipment and three or four Akitas. turns out she's good for bike hauling too.
and no, she doesn't say "Free Candy" on the side.

[Joebar4000]

I think what ElfHundo is trying to say is, the moment you hand them the keys, that's the start of the test, and they're legally obligated to do the whole thing.

Calling it off then would still technically be seen as a 'pretest'.

I never knew that about the test - makes me feel even warmer and fuzzier about the guy who aborted my dyno run when he could see the numbers weren't going to make it (O2 sensor was marginal). He took it out, got it hot, it squeaked by. I replaced the O2 sensor a coupla days later when it finally threw a code and I could figure out what it was.

I'm just busting your chops about the automatic dearie Des has an automatic because of her shoulder injury.

The GMC Safari is a great track vehicle tho! Lots of room in back, low floor for easy lifting, shorter than a pickup for easy parking, useful as a party-carrying vehicle the rest of the time, fits a double mattress for camping

Yes, my roomate from way back had one as her track carrier. Could take an R1 and FZR400 and spares for a race weekend in easily.

Troy has a much shinier ODBII reader than I do, and he's much closer - I'd take him up on it

[TheRobSJ]

Sent this in a PM to the OP, but I'll throw it up here with some details omitted just for general knowledge.

What would have been nice for them to do while writing you up was to ask if the check engine light was on. But as has been stated in the thread, once they start the test, they have to do the whole thing even though they know it's an automatic failure becuase that light is on.

The O2 seonsor code should be fairly easy to deal with. Most likely a replacement sensor will take care of it. The transmission code is another story. I used the GM service intranet (perks from being a former GM tech) to look up the code and there are a couple Technical Service Bulletins that apply for the P1870 code. Here's the one that worries me...

Subject: Diagnostic Information on Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0894 and P1870


Models: 2000-2002 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

with 4L60-E, 4L65-E or 4L70-E Automatic Transmission (RPOs M30, M32 or M70)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bulletin is being revised to provide information on the turbine shaft O-ring seal. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 02-07-30-001F (Section 07 -- Transmission/Transaxle).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diagnostic trouble codes (DTC) P0894 and P1870, Transmission Component Slipping, may have different root causes. The following diagnostic tips are provided to assist in accurately repairing the condition.

• Corporate Bulletin Number 01-07-30-023B is intended for 1996-1999 vehicles with more than 32,000 km (20,000 mi). This bulletin addresses wear in the valve body TCC isolator/regulator bore, which can cause DTC P1870. This wear condition is not the cause of DTC P0894 or P1870 on any 2000 model year vehicle built after January 15, 2000, or any 2001 or newer vehicles as the valve body used on these vehicles has been revised to prevent the wear condition.

• Corporate Bulletin Number 99-07-30-005 or newer should be used to help with diagnosis of these DTCs. This bulletin will help to determine if the DTC is caused by the TCC system or by a slipping internal transmission component such as a clutch or band.

• Slip speeds ranging from approximately 100 to 400 RPM at steady state light load driving are usually caused by the TCC not applying.

• Slip speeds greater than about 400 RPM at steady state driving are usually caused by a slipping clutch or band. Inspect the oil pan for the presence of excess clutch debris.

• A plugged or restricted TCC apply fluid orifice (238, located in the pump) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870, especially in low mileage vehicles with less than 8,000 km (5,000 mi).

• A converter clutch valve (224, located in the pump), which does not have full travel of 13 mm (0.5 in) or is stuck in the off position may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Inspect the valve for chips, debris, nicks or burrs. Also, inspect the springs (225 and 226) to make sure they are not limiting valve travel. A spring that is not fully wound may catch in the bore, limit valve travel and cause DTC P0894 or P1870.

• A cut, damaged or missing turbine shaft O-ring seal (615) may cause these DTCs. When installing this O-ring to the turbine shaft make sure it is fully seated on the groove all the way around the turbine shaft and can be easily rotated with the thumb and forefinger. Failure to fully seat this O-ring may result in cutting when the torque converter is installed.

• A cracked or leaking TCC solenoid (part of harness 66) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Use solenoid test kit J 44246 to test the operation of this solenoid.

• A cracked or leaking TCC PWM solenoid (396) may also cause DTC P0894 or P1870.

When attempting to diagnose a DTC P0894 or P1870, it is important to also refer to the appropriate Service Information (SI) document for further possible causes of this condition.

In a nutshell, all that means is that there are quite a variety of causes for that code. There is a test that only a GM dealer can perform that involves hooking up a special scan tool to the computer and initiating a self test specifically for that code. There's a slim chance that an independant shop could have the scan tool (it's called a Tech2) and could do it.

Hope this all gets straightened out for you at minimal cost. Sucks to get stuck with a new purchase that needs a ton of work already.

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by gogounited

Go somewhere else, they're tring to rob you. Any decent mechanic can turn the check engine light off with little or no trouble at all. You may be able to do it yourself by looking up the make/model online.

If you weren't a woman, I bet they wouldn't have tried to screw you so royally.

Good luck next time.

Uh no, check engine light is an automatic failure.

Sounds like the mechanic was giving her the straight 411 on the process. Clear/confirm codes, fix what needs to be fixed and retest. If they didn't do a complete test, how would they know what to tell her to get fix in order to actually pass smog? Shouldn't they get paid for doing the work?

As for CA Smog II, yes it is total BS.

[250mL]

Originally Posted by Idontdotrix

that still doesnt answer an original Question of why even BEGIN a test when the light is on when they take the keys to check the mileage?
if it comes on once a test is begun, I could understand not being able to stop but they knew prior to ever putting it into Park in the garage it would fail regardless of the emissions bc of that light.
[B]I feel like its a rip off to consumers that they have no information posted anywhere at the shop or on the state site that says you're a guaranteed fail for a CEL. [/B if I had known that I wouldn't have paid money to get the test done until I knew what the problems were! i could have instead used the money somewhere to get it checked out and have problems fixed within the time I'm allowed for the temp tags. now I'm under the gun time wise since DMV doesn't have to give me an extended temp. they can but they are not required to.
it makes no sense, and it doesn't instill any confidence in the shops conducting the tests.
ppl with cars kicking out loads of fumes are aware they are likely going to fail. i went in with the expectation that my vehicle emissions would pass easily. which they did.

Did you read my previous responses, or are my responses just nonsense?

Again, if they aborted the test once they find a CEL and send you home without completing the sniff test...does this scenario sound plausible...
1) You go to fix the CEL light by spending $400.
2) You bring it back to have them run the sniff test now that the light is out.
3) The sniff test results say you are too high in some gas or another.
4) The fix is another $500 for cat converter or somesuch. It could be this mysterious step #4 that might have been the last straw for you and result in you abandoning this van. At this point, you throw another $500 into the van to get the cat converter fixed because you already spent $400 to fix the CEL. It could possibly be the point where throwing good money at bad doesn't make sense.
5) Total out of pocket is $50 for smog, $400 for CEL, and $500 for cat = $950.

But in your case, they ran the entire test, and you passed the sniff test. You now know that when the light gets fixed, you will pass the sniff test. Total out of pocket is $50 for smog and $400 for CEL = $450. Again, because they ran the entire test (knowing they were still going to fail the car), you have the knowledge that it will only cost you $400 to fix the light and pass...but it could have been the above scenario just as well.

Also in your case, the van is worth more than the cost to fix, but what about that highschool kid looking to just eek out a couple more years of his beater. The $50 spend on the inital smog test could have given him the information to prevent dumping $800 into his POS.

[juha_teuvonnen]

I guess a trip to Lake County,CA is in order for OP. No smog check there, just rent a mail box, and change your car registration to that address. You can always say "Main street unit #1" instead of "Main street PO Box 1".

[Holeshot]

Or pay us to use our Address up there...