Net-Moto :: Community :: Racing :: Thefts :: Racing Videos Sponsor :: Contact
 Forums   Features   Trackdays   Moto Crash Incidents   Race Team   CMSP Training   Sponsors   BARF Store   Donate   Terms of Service 
BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum  Home   UserCP   Register   Calendar   Members   FAQ   Search  AMA

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Moto > The Garage


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-17-2005, 09:24 AM   #1
Jakemate
Pastafarian Minister
 
Jakemate's Avatar
 
BB6 Slow Race Winner
Barf Roadside Angel
Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: On a plate, man. On a plate.
Motorcycles: The kind that roll me to the noodle house.
Name: Reverend
6 stroke.... WTF??

I dunno man, I was just surfing. Sorry If this is a repost.

http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/sixstroke.htm
__________________
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad! The words are completely neutral! The words are innocent!

- George Carlin (1937-2008)
Jakemate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 10:58 AM   #2
wilit
Veteran
 
wilit's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 37.78514° N 122.40100° W
Motorcycles: '01 SV650 '01 WR250
Name: Ryan
What are you doing surfing the web. Don't you have work to do? And I think your sig is wrong. It's more like 93%.
__________________
"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." - Malcom X
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
"Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." - James Madison
wilit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 11:12 AM   #3
Jakemate
Pastafarian Minister
 
Jakemate's Avatar
 
BB6 Slow Race Winner
Barf Roadside Angel
Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: On a plate, man. On a plate.
Motorcycles: The kind that roll me to the noodle house.
Name: Reverend
Quote:
Originally posted by wilit
What are you doing surfing the web. Don't you have work to do? And I think your sig is wrong. It's more like 93%.
:finger Listen here desk-jockey, how would you like 93% of my foot in the uncomfortable place! I'm done with my emergency crap, and right now Im starting the new tripples for my H1; so F.O.

Now on the serious note, I was looking for H1 motor stuff last night and ran across that 6 stroke thing. I was too buzzed to figger it out, so I posted it today.

Hey, Im gonna close shop as soon as my truck gets back, wanna go for a putt? Get me on the 2 way.
__________________
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad! The words are completely neutral! The words are innocent!

- George Carlin (1937-2008)
Jakemate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 02:10 PM   #4
radvas
Veteran
 
radvas's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dublin
Motorcycles: not nearly enough
Name: Richard
Initial reaction: I don't trust any article that only talks a bout advantages relative to another design, and uses marketing type adjectives extensively.

However, to be fair, the design may well posess all the advantages they claim. There are often interesting new approaches to existing designs (which is what I'd call this), as well as entirely new designs. They often have some significant tradeoff which prevents them from reaching mass production. I saw no description of the tradeoffs or pitfalls of this design, and since no design is perfect, I find the one-sidedness a bit discrediting, but hey, I applaud them for thinking outside the box.

And aside from real tradeoffs, you also have to consider that most mechanics aren't going to understand any new mass production design at first anyhow. Of all the manufacturers, Mazda seems the most willing to try unconventional stuff in production cars (for example the rotary and the miller cycle engine), but even if you have a manufacturer willing to do it, you need customers willing to spend cash on it.
radvas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 02:52 PM   #5
elskipador
elskipador711@yahoo.com
 
elskipador's Avatar
 
Mod Alumni
Contributor

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: the city
Motorcycles: the trickest f2 you've ever seen.
Name: shawn
Quote:
Originally posted by radvas
you also have to consider that most mechanics aren't going to understand any new mass production design at first anyhow.
looks pretty simple ot me
__________________
AUTOBOTS MC 415 Ministry of Love Dunlop tire ninja
Track tires bikebandit honda kawasaki partsfish yamaha
where to get inked up worked here for 14 years the cheat is the sheet
where i got my degrees rules of barf new fuel



want me to fix your ride?
lizzie banet bryan "ol' man" paquette herb bogart
elskipador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 05:33 PM   #6
Jakemate
Pastafarian Minister
 
Jakemate's Avatar
 
BB6 Slow Race Winner
Barf Roadside Angel
Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: On a plate, man. On a plate.
Motorcycles: The kind that roll me to the noodle house.
Name: Reverend
I gotta quit looking at that thing buzzed. It looks like a rotary valve, yeah? No?
__________________
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad! The words are completely neutral! The words are innocent!

- George Carlin (1937-2008)
Jakemate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 11:02 PM   #7
Dmk510
Veteran
 
Dmk510's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Bay
Motorcycles: Dime-a-dozen R6
Name: Dame
i didnt read the whole article, but what is the benefit, seems adding another 2 strokes to a cycle would just slow things down, unless for some reason it was making more power each revolution.

maybe it can do like 25,000 rpm, lol
Dmk510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2005, 10:04 AM   #8
radvas
Veteran
 
radvas's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dublin
Motorcycles: not nearly enough
Name: Richard
Quote:
looks pretty simple to me
OK, maybe I mis-stated that point. I should have said... most mechanics aren't going to have the required training and knowledge to repair new designs, and if those new designs never hit critical mass in production, you'll always be stuck with finding a niche mechanic.

Sure, plenty of techs know about things like DI diessels, Miller cycle engines, rotary engines, Controller Area Networks, and other "different" technologies, but knowing about the thoery behind a particular technology is not the same as being competent at troubleshooting and repairing those technologies. And I didn't mean that techs aren't capable of learning.
radvas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 01:23 PM   #9
Jakemate
Pastafarian Minister
 
Jakemate's Avatar
 
BB6 Slow Race Winner
Barf Roadside Angel
Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: On a plate, man. On a plate.
Motorcycles: The kind that roll me to the noodle house.
Name: Reverend
Stumbled onto better info...........
http://www.jack-brabham-engines.com/index.html
__________________
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad! The words are completely neutral! The words are innocent!

- George Carlin (1937-2008)
Jakemate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 04:12 PM   #10
malbeare
Newbie
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SA. Australia
Motorcycles: yamaha SR500, Ducati Beare680
Name:
NoTime2Ride here is some more info
(1)The 6-stroke engine is fundamentally superior to the 4- stroke because the head is a net contributor to, and an integral part of the power generation within the engine, unlike a cam only absorbing power.
(2)The 6stroke is thermodynamically more efficient because the change in volume of the power stroke is greater than the intake, compression, & exhaust strokes.
(3)The compression ratio can be increased because of the absence of hot spots in the combustion chamber.
(4)The rate of change in volume during the critical combustion period is less than in a 4stroke.
(5)The absence of valves within the combustion chamber allows design freedom.
(6) A one-piece engine from crankshaft to upper shaft becomes feasible. No head gasket.
(7)Fewer components, 15 per cylinder compared to 40 for a 4-stroke. Therefore the cost of manufacture is much less.
(8)Can be fitted to standard engine blocks so the market is much larger than the OEM sector , also includes the retrofit aftermarket sector.
The engine has proven to be robust on the race track, & have significant advantages over 4-strokes
(1)The valving is desmodromic
(2)There are no valves to drop or bounce.
(3)The rev limit is only what the bottom end can stand.
(4)Gas flow on intake increase of 20%.
(5)No possibility of engine damage if the timing belt slips or snaps
(6)The reed valves are so close to the intake ports that their tips become the virtual port opening. This achieves variable port area & variable engine demand valve timing. The tips open late & small amounts with low throttle settings & open early & fully at full throttle

Malbeare
http://www.sixstroke.com/

Last edited by malbeare; 03-27-2007 at 01:34 PM..
malbeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 04:14 PM   #11
Jakemate
Pastafarian Minister
 
Jakemate's Avatar
 
BB6 Slow Race Winner
Barf Roadside Angel
Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: On a plate, man. On a plate.
Motorcycles: The kind that roll me to the noodle house.
Name: Reverend

Gold!
Thanks!
__________________
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad! The words are completely neutral! The words are innocent!

- George Carlin (1937-2008)
Jakemate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 04:16 PM   #12
malbeare
Newbie
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SA. Australia
Motorcycles: yamaha SR500, Ducati Beare680
Name:
This will excite you all

To help keep a cap on power and, hence, speed, the MSMA has decided to propose a reduction in engine capacity from 990cc to 900cc. "The intention is not to reduce performance but to prevent a continuous improvement in speed and lap times," according to the press release.

2004 2007 weight changes
2 Cylinders 135 Kg 133Kg - -2Kg
3 Cylinders 135Kg 140.5 Kg +5.5Kg
4 cylinders 145 Kg 148Kg + 3Kg
5 cylinders 145Kg 155.5 Kg +10.5 Kg
6 cylinders 155Kg 163 Kg +8Kg


The proposed changes to the rules also affect the minimum weight standards, adding more weight to engines with more than two cylinders from 2007.


The proposed changes above may indicate the technical direction that some manufacturers are pursuing for the future. As Honda is the most powerful voice among the companies, it is interesting that the proposed minimum weight for five-cylinder machines, such as the Honda RC211V (and Proton KRV5), has been increased the greatest amount. This may indicate that Big Red is already working on new engine configurations and is looking to abandon the V-5.

And, as two-cylinder bikes are the only ones to get a minimum weight decrease, might we see the introduction of a 900cc MotoGP V-Twin? If so, it wouldn't be as powerful, no doubt, but it would enjoy nearly a 50-pound weight advantage over a V-5-powered machine. And, as a Twin would have a 66-pound advantage over a six-cylinder-powered bike, it looks like the rumors of a Honda V-6 will not be fulfilled.

The MSMA is also looking at perhaps reducing the 2005 rule for a 22-liter fuel tank capacity (down 2 liters from current rules) for the 2007 season.

The introduction of 4-stroke machines to MotoGP has resulted in a huge amount of newfound interest in the class. Now, with revised regulations again on the table, the series might get even more interesting.


The Testastretta engine fitted to the Ducati 998R 2002 version, the bore is 104 mm.
Unfortunately, such a large bore currently causes combustion problems with dramatically decreased efficiency.
This stems fundamentally from the need to augment the injection advance and from the worsening of the "shape factor" of the combustion chamber which, with the reduction of the bore/stroke ratio, becomes ever broader and flatter. The "shape factor" is a critical synthetic value to check a combustion chamber's good operation, and a good indicator of its compactness and "thermal efficiency".
It should be borne in mind that aspirated racing engines require rather extreme valve lift and overlap angles, therefore, cavities are made in the piston crowns to prevent contact with the half-open valves. The combustion chamber is therefore practically contained in the piston cavities, such cavities becoming bigger as the stroke/bore ratio decreases, which makes it hard to obtain the high compression ratios required by high specific power engines.

The Beare sixstroke does not have these limitations because the main lower piston does not have valve cutouts and the combustion chamber is a compact design with squish contribution from both upper and lower pistons. The shape is much more like a fist than a flat hand hence thermal efficiency is high .
Combustion chamber diameter oprox 75mm
The main piston is lighter and stronger than the 4-stroke, because the lack of cutouts allow a thinner slightly domed top
Malcolm does believe that the sixstroke 15kg weight advantage will be a major benefit for the Beare Sixstroke, much more so than the 30kg handicap enjoyed by Twins in 500cc twostroke racing. "Working on the assumption that all these four-strokes are going to make enough horsepower, 15 kilos is a lot," he says. It?s straightforward enough, the Twins will have a 10 percent weight advantage and force equals mass times acceleration, so it is a big difference.


Sixstroke Beare 900cc Vtwin MOTO GP

Bore 116.25 mm stroke 42.5 upper bore 82mm upper stroke 34mm
compression ratio 12.25 to 1
power 337HP @ 15000 RPM
torque 74.6Ft/Lbs x80% x2 = 118Ft /Lbs
piston speed at 18000 is 5019 Ft/min or 25.4965 Mtre / sec
XL engine file
Torque 101.2 NM or 74.6 Ft /Lbs discount by 20% and multiply by 2 for twin cylinder is 118 FT/ Lbs
6 port design with 3 exhaust ports leading to a rotary disk, 3 intake ports,One intake rotary disk and 2 reed valves with air assisted injectors. 2 or 4 10mm plugs per cylinder.
The port area is oprox 20% to 30% more than a 4 valve head
Results of XL file sixstroke touque calculator

Based on Dual Cycle
Total Torque
Fourstroke 62.00

Main Top
66.05 35.15 101.20

Increase in torque 63.23%


www.sixstroke.com/

Malbeare

Last edited by malbeare; 03-27-2007 at 01:35 PM..
malbeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 09:50 PM   #13
elskipador
elskipador711@yahoo.com
 
elskipador's Avatar
 
Mod Alumni
Contributor

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: the city
Motorcycles: the trickest f2 you've ever seen.
Name: shawn
Quote:
Originally posted by malbeare
(1)The valving is desmodromic
(2)There are no valves to drop or bounce.
did anyone notice these 2 points? from the stuff i saw on the site it looked as if the charge was delivered through a rotary style vavle set-up, so how can it have "desmodronic valving"? whats everybody else think?
__________________
AUTOBOTS MC 415 Ministry of Love Dunlop tire ninja
Track tires bikebandit honda kawasaki partsfish yamaha
where to get inked up worked here for 14 years the cheat is the sheet
where i got my degrees rules of barf new fuel



want me to fix your ride?
lizzie banet bryan "ol' man" paquette herb bogart

Last edited by elskipador; 01-22-2005 at 10:19 PM..
elskipador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2005, 10:46 PM   #14
malbeare
Newbie
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SA. Australia
Motorcycles: yamaha SR500, Ducati Beare680
Name:
The valving is desmodromic,
The original greek or latin means driven between track.
The upper piston is positivly positioned by the scotch yoke drive. therefore it is desmodromic.
Malbeare
malbeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 10:19 AM   #15
elskipador
elskipador711@yahoo.com
 
elskipador's Avatar
 
Mod Alumni
Contributor

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: the city
Motorcycles: the trickest f2 you've ever seen.
Name: shawn
looks like you're not the only 1 working on this....
http://www.ene3.me.gunma-u.ac.jp/vlt/vlt_lab3s.html
__________________
AUTOBOTS MC 415 Ministry of Love Dunlop tire ninja
Track tires bikebandit honda kawasaki partsfish yamaha
where to get inked up worked here for 14 years the cheat is the sheet
where i got my degrees rules of barf new fuel



want me to fix your ride?
lizzie banet bryan "ol' man" paquette herb bogart
elskipador is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.