My Freddie Spencer level 1 experience

I was disappointed. (I’m not going to litter this post with a bunch of “in my opinion”, because of course it’s all my opinion!)

The course focused on a few things, but these few things are not trivial to grasp (at least for me) by themselves, much less piled on top of each other.

The big three were:

1. Body position
2. Trail braking
3. Hitting the apex

Body position could have easily and more affectively been taught on a stationary bike looking in a mirror, not just on the side stand. We spent a few minutes on the side stand, then right out to the track. An extra 30 minutes on a bike on some stands would have been better, then learning it while moving.

Trail braking is a great thing, but if you don’t have a good idea of how fast to enter the corner, you don’t really have a good idea on how much to use the brakes in the corner. So after the 10th time of someone saying “we need to see your brake light in the corner”, I just feathered the brake so the light would come on. What I needed and thought I asked for was not help in the corner, but coming into the corner.

Hitting the apex again was easy going very slow, and got more challenging as the speeds increased. So, as I was having problems with my judgment of corner entry speeds, it was easy to hit the apex. It was difficult to hit the apex, when I was trying to think about entry speed, and then trail braking in the corner.

Then there was the “blip” downshifting. Sure I’ve heard of it, but with my type of riding, I had never tried it. So now, I’m coming down the straightaway going into turn 1, trying to do the “blip” downshift, then trying to carry enough corner speed to make trail braking useful, then focusing on hitting the apex.

So something had to be sacrificed. Since I didn’t want it to be my health, I chose the downshifting and trail braking. From then on I tried to focus on hitting the apexes and body position. The final video lap confirmed that I was hitting the apexes, and had much better body position then the day before. Before I forget, my leather pants are way too tight!

Now add to the above, the dynamic of a bunch of other students all struggling with their own problems. We had the really painfully slow, the “I used to race”, the “I’m a CEO, and I don’t care about you”, the “I just turned 15 ½ and I got my own bike, and I’m going to be a racer”, the “I’m never on a track, so I’m going balls out on someone else’s bike” and finally the majority of the class “I’m trying to work on technique”.

When did you attend the school? Was it the 2 or the 3 day school? What's your experience level? Do you race, are you a track day rider, or was this your first on track experience?

karayzieho said:

When did you attend the school? Was it the 2 or the 3 day school? What's your experience level? Do you race, are you a track day rider, or was this your first on track experience?

Click to expand...

I was there the end of November for the 2 day school. I got my endorsement in 1986, so I would consider myself a pretty experienced street rider. I don't race, have never been on a track, but really want to start doing track days.

I think I just expected too much. There are so many new things to work on, and so little time. I will say the instructors were very knowledgable and friendly, as were the support staff.

bigt said:

I was there the end of November for the 2 day school. I got my endorsement in 1986, so I would consider myself a pretty experienced street rider. I don't race, have never been on a track, but really want to start doing track days.

I think I just expected too much. There are so many new things to work on, and so little time. I will say the instructors were very knowledgable and friendly, as were the support staff.

Click to expand...

Oh, okay. I'm planning to take the school in March or April. I'm sorry it wasn't the greatest experience, that's a lot of money to spend and not feel totally stoked on it. My suspicion is that the school would be more valuable to someone after already having had some solid track day experiences, but I'll share my thoughts too once I've done it. For example, I've done maybe six or seven track days and have never even come close to experimenting with trail braking; I feel like it's the last thing I should be thinking about on my first day at the track. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm glad I'll be going there already having worked quite a bit on lines and finding reference points for turn entry, apex and exit, body positioning and braking.

I think you will be much better off than I was. In our class we had a pretty odd mix of riders, too odd really.

We had a total of 17 people I think. Four or five had never even been on a sport bike, one was a novice racer (teenager) who was there on his race prep'd bike and had taken the class before, two returning students, one ex-racer, then a scattering of others with varying levels of experience.

The slow group, although they don't call it that, was really slow, and the fast group was pretty inconsistent due to the different skill levels. But there's not much you can do about that unless you have different classes for different levels of riders.

Good luck, and be sure and post your thoughts.

P.S.

I looked at your myspace page, and I think your underpants are showing in a couple of those pictures!

The mixed-up groupings really stink, don't they? It makes it hard to concentrate on the lesson.

I think you should have done my class and I should have done yours.
None of those concepts are new to me. I trail brake all the time, for instance.

And I REALLY need work on my body position. I hang my butt way off, but forget to bring the rest of me.

Anyway, look at another school for the future. I'll look at Spencer's classes. It's only money, right?

school days

bigt

A balanced curriculum just like a balanced group of riders who would never either get in someone's way or be too fast and have people in their way all the time, isn't easy to achieve for any school or track day. Freddie, Me, Zoom Zoom--anyone.

Techniques can seem too basic or too advanced for one rider or another. The big mistake is thinking that you are already good at a particular skill when there still may be loads to learn about it.

You recognized that there were things being taught you weren't able to do which doesn't mean that you couldn't get a lot more out of it after you've ridden more.

Don't give up, it can take a while to feel you have a solid enough foundation of skills and enough feel for the bike to move up to your next plateau.

Keith

As far as I am concerned, Freddie Spencers' school is much more valuable for EXPERIENCED racers and track riders. There is no need to get a former world champion as an instructor if you are not an experienced track rider. The money is better spent on schools such as CSS, Keigwin, PTT, and others that offer hands on instruction.

If you are attending university you don't take graduate classes until you have completed the undergrad curriculum.

One school is NOT going to make you fast or give you knowledge of how to deal with your entry speed problem. What will give you knowledge of how to deal with your entry speed problem is to establish braking and turn in markers and then SLIGHTLY change your braking point and see what happens. That's it. There is NO magic system that lets you enter a corner as fast as Matt. You need to do a huge amount of WORK to learn entry speed, over a long period of time. Do a couple lower level schools and spend a season on the track practicing. The cost of the Spencer school is enough to pay for a couple lower level schools AND a bunch of track days.

I don't mean to sound harsh, just to point out that riding is a skill learned, not a system that you pick up in one day, unless you incredibly gifted and start at a young age.

I have been to all of Kegiwin's schools, many CLASS schools, PTT help, and worked with Doug Chandler, who really made me aware of where I was on the track and body position. Doug is awesome at pointing out how being in one place affects where you are going and how to enter and exit a corner. (If you listen) I have worked with racers. I have done many track days. I don't consider my level of experience to have reached the point where I would benefit from a Freddie School. I am interested in doing a CSS school and another Chandler schoool.

Freddie knows how to ride fast. Most of us will never go fast. I am going semi fast and doubt I will ever go fast.

yeah, but did you get to have a beer with Freddie Spencer?

That guy was hella good, back in the day...

Butch said:

yeah, but did you get to have a beer with Freddie Spencer?

That guy was hella good, back in the day...

Click to expand...

Butch,

I beg to differ, Freddie wasn't "good" back in the day--he was PHENOMENAL. He was a phenomenon unto himself.

At Loudon in I think it was '79 he was riding Irv Kanemoto's 250 and watching him go into the last corner along the pit straight and how he let off on the brakes gave me a whole different viewpoint on braking and, low and behold, that is what his school focuses on.

He really was a master at turn entry speed, sooooo much faster than anyone who was then riding 250's it was almost silly fast when you compared him to the others out there.

It wasn't how far he trailled the brakes into the corner, that wasn't yet a popular style of riding--it was how progressively he let the brakes out that was most impressive.

So yes, he was trailing the brake but not deep into the corner as it sounds like he teaches now.

With bias ply tires, heavy brake trailing wasn't advisable for your health and welfare but it didn't slow Freddie down then. Most impressive.

Keith

Keith...

thanx for the direct reply.

"I am not worthy... I am not worthy... etc..."

I have had the pleasure of riding with some really talented folks.

I just gotta say, these guys are freaks. They have HUGH amounts of talent that ordinany humans could not hope to compete with.

Freddy Spencer is among them... but Wayne Rainey, Mario Andretti, Phil Hill, Arton Senna, Marlon Brando, Peter Fonda, Eddie lawson, John Surtees are ...

These guys are folks of extrodinary talent who changed the sport. OK, not the Holly Weed boys.

I note auto guys also, cause they are folks that are so much faster than the crowd.

They are different from ordinary human beings. They are so cool, yet they are extraodinary. They are freaks.

I'd love to be a freak with that much talent.

And Keith, you have way awesome talent. Keep up the good work.

Am I worthy? Yes thank you. And the really cool thing is that all the folks around here have the oportunity to work you and Freddie Spencer and all the other extremely talented folks who runs trackdays and schools.

I am living in heavan.

bigt said:

I got my endorsement in 1986, so I would consider myself a pretty experienced street rider. I don't race, have never been on a track, but really want to start doing track days.

Click to expand...

Well maybe it will all make more sense as you accumulate track time in the future.

Kudos to you for seeking out instruction so early in your track-riding pursuits. Most of us do tons of track days and teach ourselves all kinds of bad habits. Then seek out instruction to relearn things the correct way.

bigt said:

I think I just expected too much. There are so many new things to work on, and so little time.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you just didn't make as much progress as you would have liked, and didn't master everything they taught you within the 2-3 days you were there. That's fine, just keep practicing. Every time you ride, you can practice this stuff - trailing off the front brake, getting your body in position, blipping your downshifts, hitting the pavement spots you want to hit, etc. Go do some track days and work on it, then maybe take some more schools if you want to learn more - Spencer, CSS, STAR, Schwantz, you'll pick up more techniques from every one.

Some other views, FWIW:

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34303
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187881
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119101
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66675
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58669
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44716
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14710

Well I finally got out yesterday for the first ride after the class (the weather has been horrible up here). I will say that my awareness level of body position was way up, as well as my "blip" downshifting.

It was nice to hear everyones opinions on my post, but two things really stood out. The first from afm199, when he mentioned the school being more valuable for experienced track riders. I completely agree. I think anyone who has spent time on a track, would love this class. Just look at the links JeffKoch posted, all but one, I think, were riders who had prior track experience.

The second was from Keith, stating how difficult it is to get a balanced group of riders. I mentioned it in an earlier post, but in my class we had 4 or 5 people that had never even been on a sportbike. Then we had a guy that used to race (I don't remember where), and a kid who was currently racing novice. To me that is a pretty huge range of experience levels. I do empathize with any school coordinator who has to balance the levels of riders with class availability.

In the end, it is only money, as clutchslip puts it, and I did get some valuable information from the class. I may even try the 3 day course in Utah, who knows. I just thought it would be useful, as a complete track virgin, to share my thoughts and hopefully help set expectations a little more reasonably for someone else.

Some think that getting some track time first, then doing a school is best. But then, what's to keep one from practicing bad habits? Sometimes it helps to get advice from local fast guys, but who knows if you are getting really good advice?

Normally we'd recomnend a little training, then do some track days, then come back and have the technique looked over.

One nice thing is, if it were easy, it wouldn't be as much fun getting good at it!

Best,
Cobie

What ever happened to THE books, Twist of the Wrist? Talk about cheap instruction! That was the only coach, instuctor or training I ever had and it was more than I could implement in a brief, part-time 5yrs. of track riding. You'll be so busy practicing good techniques you won't have time for practicing bad habits(ALL "habits" are bad)! For sure though, practice, practice, practice.

I did the 2 day session at LVMS in April. I have to agree the disparate levels of attendees was a little bothersome. Maybe 1/5 of my laps were hindered by another rider. By that I mean I was slowed down to the point that I really couldn't execute the immediate lesson for that lap.
I'm sure Jason DiSalvo was equally annoyed when he blew by me a couple of times.
I think I learned a lot though and would recommend it after you've done some other training.

This subject of riders of different speeds comes up all the time: talk to racers of all skills levels, track day riders too.

I think this is a fact of life, unless you are very, very wealthy and can rent a track on your own, you are going to have traffic.

joespeedfast said:

What ever happened to THE books, Twist of the Wrist? Talk about cheap instruction! That was the only coach, instuctor or training I ever had and it was more than I could implement in a brief, part-time 5yrs. of track riding. You'll be so busy practicing good techniques you won't have time for practicing bad habits(ALL "habits" are bad)! For sure though, practice, practice, practice.

Click to expand...

+1 on this post!

I read Twist of the Wrist II a couple of times before ever hitting the track. Digesting, understanding, and practicing these techniques really helped me. After having a pretty good handle on Keith's philosophy, I signed up for CSS level I. Since I was already familiar with Keith's system, I was really able to refine my technique. Much less overwhelming this way and I learned tons more than I would've w/o the prep. The bottom line is you need to be a spounge. I subscribe to multiple mags, read, occasional open track day, riding school, internet forums, and, most of all, lots of twisties!

CJ

prep for schools

Frisco,

Thanks mate, you are 100% correct, the better the rider has prepped him or herself before they come to a school environment, the easier they are to coach and their improvement tends to be greater than someone who hasn't done some "homework".

Rider who have aren't hearing the technical points for the first time and the coaching is that much more effective. Mainly because they have made some mistakes. That's good?

To me it is because they now know they are making errors and feel the need for improvement. That is a perfect student.

Keith