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Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

The point of the technique in this regard is more of an economic factor. You can use the tire until there's almost no rubber on the carcass
I definitely agree with the tire saving/tire utilization concept that's being discussed here Keith .... based on some personal experience with just such a technique.

Having done a lot of endurance roadrace events over the years, forced me to learn how to find additional laps at speed, on a tire that'd begun to sign-off from lack of rubber in the "sweet spot".

What's the "sweet spot"?

That's the narrow range of contact patch ,about 1" in from the edge of the tread surface, where the tire is contacting the pavement at the typical "get on the gas hard pont" ..... on the exit of turns.

The slipping/sliding, and laying down of rubber, that this portion of the tire is subjected to (in a racing environment) makes that area the equivalent of the center portion of a long-range commuter rider's tire. Basically a "flat spot" develops, along with the absence of rubber (and grip) compared to the surrounding tire surface areas.

To put in additional fast laps late into an endurance race, without high-sideing to the moon, I found that it necessary to change one aspect of my riding technique. What was that? The decision of "when" (what point during the process of bringing the bike back from being leaned over, in the later portion of a turn) to begin the serious throttle roll-on for acceleration.

Basically the change consisted of doing just the opposite of what was being discussed before, where the rider was pushing the bike away from them, in an act of "standing the bike up".

In this case the area of the tire where that traditional "standing the bike up" technique had been used in the first 3 hours of the race, had become (as a result) the dead-zone (flattened/little rubber left). So the change of technique was to deliberately keep the bike leaned over longer, while finishing off the hard acceleration turns, so that the more virgin rubber closer to the edge of the tire would be in contact with the pavement during the tire slipping/sliding/spinning of hard acceleration off those turns.

This technique of consciously putting the tire on the "good spot", via a rather atypical timing of throttle and lean angle position, has always worked well in endurance racing. It consistently allowed running at least 1-2 seconds/lap faster then was possible when having to ease the gas on in almost a rain-riding mode style, if using the heavily worn area of the rear tire via a standard riding technique.

Just another version (though in the opposite direction) of the theme of a rider consciously working the bike to use a different lean angle during acceleration, to maximize the available grip.

Gary J
 
I'm going to vote ktmle as well. Even if he didn't get the exact list, which would be difficult, he put a lot of effort into figuring out situations where it applies and I think that he deserves the tires. :thumbup to him, and everyone else who contributed...It's really helped me a lot when it comes to thinking about techniques :)

GaryJ describes much better than i ever could what i was thinking when i said "reduces tire wear".
 
In this case the area of the tire where that traditional "standing the bike up" technique had been used in the first 3 hours of the race, had become (as a result) the dead-zone (flattened/little rubber left). So the change of technique was to deliberately keep the bike leaned over longer, while finishing off the hard acceleration turns, so that the more virgin rubber closer to the edge of the tire would be in contact with the pavement during the tire slipping/sliding/spinning of hard acceleration off those turns.

This technique of consciously putting the tire on the "good spot", via a rather atypical timing of throttle and lean angle position, has always worked well in endurance racing. It consistently allowed running at least 1-2 seconds/lap faster then was possible when having to ease the gas on in almost a rain-riding mode style, if using the heavily worn area of the rear tire via a standard riding technique.

Just another version (though in the opposite direction) of the theme of a rider consciously working the bike to use a different lean angle during acceleration, to maximize the available grip.

Gary J

I am curious Gary, did you find this technique by looking at your tires after the race and saying "Hey look at all of this perfectly good rubber on the edge of the tire we didn't use"? Or was it a matter of the bike feeling better near the end of a race when, for whatever reason, you didn't push the bike up before hard acceleration? So you stuck with that technique and then figured out why it worked later?

In my own experience, I have found new techniques through both methods. It is one of the things that makes getting around a racetrack quickly interesting. You never know where the next great idea will come from. You just try to pay attention to everything so you don't miss it.

Rick
 
I am curious Gary, did you find this technique by looking at your tires after the race and saying "Hey look at all of this perfectly good rubber on the edge of the tire we didn't use"? Or was it a matter of the bike feeling better near the end of a race ......
I guess it really began with your first option Rick, in my having inspected the wear patterns on the rear tire of my racebikes for a lot of years, after they'd been ridden enough laps to be at the absolute end of their normal use life.

I'd observed the "sweet spot" being worn down completely, to the point where the rubber in this 1 1/2" wide area was actually quite a bit lower then the surface area of the rubber to the inside, and to the outside.

The first time I really put the pieces together, of the tire wear observations of the past, and the active degradation of traction I was feeling from a wearing out rear tire in the middle of an endurance race, was about 8 years ago. The final straw that made me experiment, was a very ....very close to 110MPH+ highside coming out of Turn 9 on the old Sears Point configuration.

Initially I just slowed down about 2 seconds a lap to limp out the last 45 minutes of the 4-Hour race. However after getting passed by a number of bikes I'd previously been in front of, I decided I wasn't going to give up without at least trying something different.

I applied the "keep it leaned over longer", while finishing off those turns where getting a good drive out was important. The goal being to work the "still good" rubber contact patch area, located to the outside of badly worn and flat-spotted normal "power patch" in the rear tire.

My lap times dropped back down (by almost 2 seconds), close to the best laps I'd done in the entire race, despite being the last 30 minutes of the 4-Hour race ...... on a tire that looked pretty ugly by the time the checkered flag flew.

Necessity had been the final teacher; in providing a new technique for getting the maximum life out of a tire in a race environment. Been using that technique while running endurance races every year since, with consistently good results ....... so I know it does work! :thumbup
 
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Hmm. Do you think that this technique should only be used by those which have pushed the limits of a used up rear as you have? Lap after lap of sliding should be good training for highside prevention, and hard acceleration at the limits of lean are the text book ingredients for a highside. How do you monitor your traction while doing this? What warning signs are you waiting for to know "okay, thats all the throttle I can get away with"?

Additionally, if your "sweet spot" of the tire is already spent, and you still brake loose on the "virgin" outermost edge, how do you compensate? As mentioned earlier in this thread, normally you would pick the bike up to smoothly regain control, but if you are picking it back up onto a contact patch with less traction than that upon which you are already sliding, what effect if any does it have? I really need to buy another dirt bike:ride
 
Hmm. Do you think that this technique should only be used by those which have pushed the limits of a used up rear as you have?
Interesting question Rory. I guess it would depend upon the actual application.

If we look at the condition of the rear tire (badly worn out in the normal "sweet spot"), from the "consciously keeping the bike leaned over longer, during corner exit" example I was recounting from endurance roadracing experiences, I would most certainly not suggest that anyone outside of this form of necessity environment ever ride on such a tire. That would include street riding, as well as trackday riding, or even normal (sprint) roadracing.

If things were looked at more from the perspective of an advanced skilled rider developing the ability to experiment with consciously putting the motorcycle into a particular lean angle during corner exit .... to achieve a specific goal, then I'd say "yes" to there being some value for a broader audience.

How do you monitor your traction while doing this?

The process of monitoring traction is no different when consciously using the "good rubber" beyond the badly worn area in this special endurance race example, then it is during any other form of riding/racing. The key for monitoring traction limits for me, has always been using a baby steps approach, in conjunction with a very high (traction) sampling rate.

Riding in wet weather conditions has always proven to be an ideal training ground for developing the ultra high level of sensitivity that is required for pushing performance limits on the track ... in the dry.

Basically this incremental change, and sampling process is achieved using the following sequence:

  • 1) Apply a very small increment of additional throttle position (while exiting corner)
    2) "Feel" (sample) for whether the rear tire still has 100% 1-to-1 traction (no spin/slide)
    3) Apply one more small increment of throtte
    4) Sample the feedback from the tire for whether the traction threshold has been reached
    5) Repeat steps above until the tire's traction limit is JUST reached
    6) Make very small adjustments, as necessary, to maintain that perfect balance

What warning signs are you waiting for to know "okay, thats all the throttle I can get away with"?

The detection of when that threshold has been reached, can/is detected through a variety of subtle sensory inputs from the sampling process:

  • 1) Change of engine RPM
    2) Change of bike's lean angle
    3) Change of directional trajectory of bike (the "picture" you see ahead changing)
    4) Subtle vibrational changes (sensed from the tire's contact patch, through the bike's chassis and controls, and back to the rider)

Additionally, if your "sweet spot" of the tire is already spent, and you still brake loose on the "virgin" outermost edge, how do you compensate?

That's a good question and point Rory! As you eluded to, in a normal tire (not worn-out in the sweet spot, as in the endurance instance) scenario, if the rear begins to lose traction from hard acceleration during a corner exit, the act of consciously "straightening it up" .... by pushing the bike away from the rider to get more towards the center of the tire is the oft used technique.

In this special-case (endurance wear) scenario, pushing the bike back up is NOT part of the program. As that this "tool" is not available for regaining traction and control in this case, the rider/racer has to be that much more accurate in their "sampling" of traction .... to ensure they don't exceed the target limits of grip on this outer edge reserve "good rubber" area.

If it does start to get away, rather then standing the bike back up a bit; subtle adjustments to throttle, body position, etc are the tools called into play to attempt to get things back under control again.

Hope this helps provide some insight into the advanced traction management process, via consciously setting the bike at a specific target lean angle .... whether it be "straigtening the bike up" in the more traditional application, or the "keep it down longer" approach for getting the last out of a well spent rear tire. Hopefully I've also answered your very insightful questions along the way Rory?

Gary J
 
Definately a huge help, and thank you for providing a well thought out and in depth answer! As a "slow" guy that aspires to become a "sluggish" guy, information like Keith has provided in his two threads, and you have in your response are invaluable. Big thumbs up to all of those with greater skills and/ or knowledge than me that are willing to share their thoughts on riding:thumbup:applause:hail:Port Especially when you both have information that has been proven to be profitable in the sharing, be it through books, videos, schools, coaching etc. It is truly refreshing to see, and thank you for your efforts, those of us with a thirst for knowledge owe you a debt of gratitude.
 
I love BARF. Out of all the different kinds of listservs and forums I am and have been on, this is the best place for information, entertainment, and whatever else. Thanks, Keith, Gary, and everyone else!
 
Thanks for the votes, guys. And thanks to you, Keith, for the contest. I will definitely put the tires to use. I rode the school bikes with the Dunlops when I attended the California Superbike School and was very impressed with how sticky they were. I was planning to buy a set when I wear out my current track bike tires. Now I can use that money for a couple more track days. :thumbup

Rick
 
Got the tires

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to report that I have received the tires as promised by Keith. He even special ordered the odd sizes required for my SV650. They got here at just the right time, as the current set on the bike is too worn to take to any more track days. :thumbup

Many thanks to all,
Rick
 
Keith,my name is Jason Miller and I took your class in 86 at Laguna ,Ive been in and out of riding since then, but started getting more serious in the AFM 04-06 ,had a good year in 06 on my 06 gsxr 1000 ,never going down all season and having a best finish of 6th place in open sb or open gp,gave up 4th position on last lap and couldn't retake it ,I've have a couple touchy situation with the back stepping out , but have managed to keep my bike rash free thus far . due to finacial reasons I've been forced to cut back my racing to the Infineon track only. I'm about 8 seconds off the fastest guys in the club (Stanton ,Earnest ,Randolph ,Hill ,ect) I'm doing around 1:41-1:42's at Infineon, I met budman today on a ride up at Alices and he had mentioned Earnest has been racing for 25 years ,Now I've only got a couple full seasons in ,so my question is; do you think it is possible to shave the seconds needed to be a front runner in the AFM from taking your or other reputable schools or is it more about race time on the track. I've had a couple instructors follow me around at different trackday events to get their input and they basically told me I was doing pretty good and it looked like I knew my lines and couldn't really say were I was lacking . Any thoughts on how to get personal coaching or something that can get me a podium . Thanks kieth I would love to take a class with you at Laguna or Infineon if you think you can help me out with my goals ,Thanks Kieth,
 
An interesting note: last December Keith had a kid named Karel Abraham come out to do a school with us at Sears. He races in the MotoGP 250 class. In the '07 season he was only able to get a best finish of 10th (in the rain, lots of front runners crashed). Most of last season he was running bewteen 3-5 seconds off the leaders times. After his trip to the US for training, he qualified 1 second off of the pole and had his best ever finish of 7th in a 250cc GP race at the season opener at Qatar.
 
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Keith,

Sorry if this was asked before, but could you go into more detail about the Lvl 4 training and who you would expect to be taking that kind of class?
 
all those seconds

Keith,my name is Jason Miller and I took your class in 86 at Laguna ,Ive been in and out of riding since then, but started getting more serious in the AFM 04-06 ,had a good year in 06 on my 06 gsxr 1000 ,never going down all season and having a best finish of 6th place in open sb or open gp,gave up 4th position on last lap and couldn't retake it ,I've have a couple touchy situation with the back stepping out , but have managed to keep my bike rash free thus far . due to finacial reasons I've been forced to cut back my racing to the Infineon track only. I'm about 8 seconds off the fastest guys in the club (Stanton ,Earnest ,Randolph ,Hill ,ect) I'm doing around 1:41-1:42's at Infineon, I met budman today on a ride up at Alices and he had mentioned Earnest has been racing for 25 years ,Now I've only got a couple full seasons in ,so my question is; do you think it is possible to shave the seconds needed to be a front runner in the AFM from taking your or other reputable schools or is it more about race time on the track. I've had a couple instructors follow me around at different trackday events to get their input and they basically told me I was doing pretty good and it looked like I knew my lines and couldn't really say were I was lacking . Any thoughts on how to get personal coaching or something that can get me a podium . Thanks kieth I would love to take a class with you at Laguna or Infineon if you think you can help me out with my goals ,Thanks Kieth,

Jason,

You are an average of 1/2 second off in each turn at Sears Point (not the numbered turns the real bends in the road). 1/2 second isn't a long time but consider that you are spending only around three seconds or less in most of the corners--obvious exceptions being the carousel and turn 5 probably 7 and 11 as well.

That is roughly 16% and 16% is a lot of time. On the overall lap you are about 8% slower than the front-runners. That is still a lot of time.

I can't give you an armchair solution, I don't know you and I don't know your riding but be assured that being followed a few laps by someone and getting some "advice" isn't going to fix it.

In other words, there isn't just one little thing, one technique, one techanical aspect or mental aspect to racing that is going to pull it together for you and make the times come tumbling down.

Where most "instructors" fail is in not realizing this: each time you change any thing about your riding, there is a whole realignment that occurs. Each piece has to find it's place in the new order or you simply wind up riding around some other problem that you created.

It's just like suspension: In the wise words of Tony Foale, the suspension whiz, "You can't change just one thing". Once you adjust your suspension's settings you disturb other settings, angles, distribution of weight, etc.

There is no magic fix-all in suspensions or in riding.

Some people like to mumble things like "advanced riding techniques", horsepucky. All real improvement rests on a solid foundation and logical progression of basics. Once a rider has them under some control, he can move on from there--and will not move on confidently if he doesn't.

Keith

PS: 1986 hmmmm. The only thing that you would recognize about the school from that time is me, my wife Judy and my son Dylan. All the drills are broken down into more bite sized pieces and each piece builds on the next...and yes, they are basics. One thing I can tell you is this: Your coach at the school won't say what you heard from that person who followed you around a few laps. They will give you something to improve every session and it will work.

One more thing. If you have some idea to come out to see how fast you can go, don't come. If you have the intention to learn something and ride at a level where you can get them under control, I'll be happy to see you as a student.
 
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