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Old 09-21-2016, 08:07 AM   #16
motomania2007
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Surj,

The class teaches them THE BASICS I never said anyone finishing the basic class is ready to go ride in traffic.

IMO they need a LOT more training and LOT more practice.

But, the class is limited to 15 hours BY LAW. It is a very poor compromise of time v. cost.

I would like to see the class be several more days riding but that would drive the cost of the class to $1000 or more and that would result in fewer riders getting any training.

This is why there are more classes out there.

Being afraid of dropping a motorcycle while stopped or at low speed is 100 percent avoidable and thus the fear should be avoided.

The fear is a huge distraction to many riders and it is completely unnecessary. Use good judgement and eliminate or at least minimize the fear.

This is not to say the fear of crashing a motorcycle is an unnecessary or irrational fear as that is very rational and realistic.

It is not cavalier at all. It is very realistic.

I have worked with many riders on the road as well as thousands in class over the years and learning to eliminate unnecessary fears and manage the rest is vital to riding safely.

As to learning risk awareness and management, there is little opportunity to practice those in a parking lot, however we do push them to look around before moving out from a stop, looking through turns and in the last exercise of traffic interraction plus about 1/3 of the classroom is dedicated to this topic.

They need a lot more practice before riding on the street.
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:24 AM   #17
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I will chime is as to Surj's post.

I do somewhat agree with your post Surj but there are cased where some student are fairly close to be prepared to ride around their block to bring their confidence up. Some are even ready to be on the road provided that they has some prior experience (dirt or from other country).

I am a firm believer that most of the mindset in preparing a student to ride on the street rest in the classroom thus the instructor should be creative and be realistic about the reality of riding on public roads.

The range portion are primarily designed to acquaint themselves into the operation of the motorcycle to gain confidence. If done correctly the student should be able to assess themselves as to moving forward to riding on the streets.

BTW if I can recall the 15 hours is not LAW, but it is the requirement that was established by the CHP for the CMSP. This has been a standing rule for over 2 decades.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:03 AM   #18
motomania2007
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Originally Posted by Outta Control View Post
I will chime is as to Surj's post.

I do somewhat agree with your post Surj but there are cased where some student are fairly close to be prepared to ride around their block to bring their confidence up. Some are even ready to be on the road provided that they has some prior experience (dirt or from other country).

I am a firm believer that most of the mindset in preparing a student to ride on the street rest in the classroom thus the instructor should be creative and be realistic about the reality of riding on public roads.

The range portion are primarily designed to acquaint themselves into the operation of the motorcycle to gain confidence. If done correctly the student should be able to assess themselves as to moving forward to riding on the streets.

BTW if I can recall the 15 hours is not LAW, but it is the requirement that was established by the CHP for the CMSP. This has been a standing rule for over 2 decades.
That all sounds great!

BTW, you are correct it is not per se a law that it is limited to 15 hours but the legislature argued over this point when the CMSP was created and 15 hours is what they agreed on to create the program that the CHP oversees.

It would be great if it was longer and more comprehensive ...
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:15 AM   #19
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Motomania, OuttaControl, I understand both of your perspectives, but a lot of what you're saying is justifying what the CMSP course is within the limitations that are placed on it. I think what the OP is saying, and what I'm certainly saying is that it's not enough.

Yes, some riders come with more background, some with less, and the whole thing has to be able to cope with varying levels of experience. What the OP is saying, and what I'm saying is that the amount of training isn't enough. That's not a dig on the good people that do this stuff, or the program—it's built according to the requirements established by the CMSP.

But here's the inherent contradiction in this discussion: it's in the industry's (and perhaps the riding community's) best interest to make training easy (in the sense of inexpensive, not overly time-consuming, etc), so more people get training, licensed and ride.

But getting more people on bikes with limited training isn't necessarily in the best interest of those people (or perhaps the community's), as many of them are not equipped well-enough by that training to be functional motorcyclists, and ultimately get injured or killed or just give up.

We know damn well that a big percentage or riders absolutely fail at self-assessment of their skills, with horrible consequences.

Last edited by Surj; 09-21-2016 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by motomania2007 View Post
That all sounds great!

BTW, you are correct it is not per se a law that it is limited to 15 hours but the legislature argued over this point when the CMSP was created and 15 hours is what they agreed on to create the program that the CHP oversees.

It would be great if it was longer and more comprehensive ...
If you really look at it the program actually runs over 15 hours.

I would like to see more classroom time than riding.

I find the current amount is sufficient for student and that some returning students from the old curriculum found the figure-8 box was a valuable exercise.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:37 AM   #21
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...But here's the inherent contradiction in this discussion: it's in the industry's (and perhaps the riding community's) best interest to make training easy (in the sense of inexpensive, not overly time-consuming, etc), so more people get training, licensed and ride.

But getting more people on bikes with limited training isn't necessarily in the best interest of those people, as many of them are not equipped well-enough by that training to be functional motorcyclists, and ultimately get injured or killed or just give up.

We know damn well that a big percentage or riders absolutely fail at self-assessment of their skills, with horrible consequences.
I will agree to this.

Thus why I am a huge proponent that since the limitation imposed to us instructors is reality, it is up to the instructor to mentor and be an influencer to continue their training until they decide they will stop riding all together.

Most of our students are adults with varied to no riding experience. Some take our advice to gain further learning and technique building exercises on their own because reality is a very small to no students will jump out to do a street riding on a closed course such as CLASS and others. Even the IRC doesn't fully prepare a student to be proficient on the streets.

It is what it is.

It is all on one's personal desire and discipline to be a better and safer rider.
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"Non-stop pursuing of wealth will only turn a person into a twisted being, just like me."..."Material things lost can be found. But there is one thing that can never be found when it is lost – “Life”." Steve Jobs

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Old 09-21-2016, 11:56 AM   #22
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Damn, you guys all ROCK!!! Every bit of this helps a lot, thanks sincerely!!!

My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test. It's seems like an easy out and/or a false sense of confidence for total beginners who enter the course. There should be driving and written tests for the course itself, maybe with a grading scale that gives us an idea of how far we need to go to actually pass the DMV exams. That would have put my head in the right direction IMHO.

I had read the BARF sticky beforehand that said we'd get about 2% of what we need and enough to get started. Stuff like that provides perspective and really helped. I'll also add that I think CMSP does a bang-up job for the time allotted.

And as far as appreciating BARF, I really do! Don't think I've ever felt so supported. Thanks everyone.

PS: My copy of Proficient Motorcycling is in the mail :->>
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Old 09-21-2016, 12:14 PM   #23
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In a Utopia world that would great but this is the way the state can provide an incentive for folks to take the course and to get their feet wet. I typically offer some exercises that students can do on their own at a near by parking lot particularly for hazard avoidance exercises.
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"Non-stop pursuing of wealth will only turn a person into a twisted being, just like me."..."Material things lost can be found. But there is one thing that can never be found when it is lost – “Life”." Steve Jobs

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Old 09-21-2016, 01:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test. It's seems like an easy out and/or a false sense of confidence for total beginners who enter the course. There should be driving and written tests for the course itself, maybe with a grading scale that gives us an idea of how far we need to go to actually pass the DMV exams. That would have put my head in the right direction IMHO.
But if you pass the skills portion from an instructor that's certified in motorcycle training, what's the difference with passing in the course versus in front of DMV official who may not even ride? If you Youtube...DMV motorcycle test you'll find some where the official barely knows what the instructions for the skills exam are asking. I think the instructors are pretty good about finding out who should pass and who shouldn't. As said about it's all 15 mph skills. If you couldn't do them on the range, then now way they could be done at the DMV. If you passed off the range then there's a pretty good chance you'd pass the DMV, the only difference being with the CMSP course you get added education/instruction.
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Old 09-21-2016, 01:51 PM   #25
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What a stunning thread

Folks,

I'm a nobody here but an old rider and I think that the OP did a remarkable job of stating the concerns. This prompted a flurry of help offerings, some spot on others not so much as I see it.

Perhaps the philosophy regarding the training courses was a bit above the level of the OP, but is still valid.

Maybe the OP would benefit more from help like TWT offered.

I can visualize the OP on a 50 cc bike in a parking lot getting used to the mechanics of the throttle, clutch and brakes rather quickly. After that light neighborhood rides with hills and stop signs???

John
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Old 09-21-2016, 01:54 PM   #26
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Also Steph (aka OP)

YouTube. There are some peeps that post real good videos about basic moto skills. Supplement that with any instruction from experience people on here.

I was actually surprised that given my course was in the Bay Area that it didn't cover hills at all so I avoided them best I could until I found a guy in Australia on YouTube who gave a pretty good starting/stopping on hills tutoring. Now I have more confidence even on SF and Peninsula hills.

Last edited by twiggidy; 09-21-2016 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:03 PM   #27
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Folks,

I recall that back in '62 I was shown that on a 50 cc bike I could walk along side of it at a bit above idle.

Clutch and throttle control didn't take much time to get used to.

John
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Old 09-21-2016, 04:20 PM   #28
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I agree with the OP in regards to the fact that completing the MSF is not going to completely prepare you for riding on the road. From my own experience it took me around 1500 miles of riding in various conditions before I became more or less comfortable riding on the street. I can’t really expect to have an instructor shadow me and give me advice for 1500 miles, it would have certainly helped, but what I got out of MSF was good enough to let me ride my new bike from the dealer to my house. In general, most any certification (be it for driving, gun ownership, operating heavy equipment, etc) in the US is not good enough to really prepare you for what you are about to embark on, it is always your own responsibility to get additional training; One can argue that this is a part of being in the land of the free
When I was working on getting my car license at 16 years of age, I got one of these instructors, forgot the name of the program, but it was and still is common for minors. Anyway, here is how my first car driving experience went:
Instructor: Do you smoke?
Me: Yeah
Instructor: I want you to light up a cigarette and smoke as we go through this. It will help you.
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, take a right at El Camino, you gotta get used to driving on the big streets. Don’t put out that cigarette. Get used to riding on the big streets and smoking!
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, you’re good. Here is your certificate.
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Old 09-21-2016, 05:49 PM   #29
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I don't think anyone is ready when initially qualified... I have never taken a safety course and passed the DMV riding test after failing 3x first (actually this was like in 2001 and I used this place I found in the yellow pages called "we guarantee you pass". On test day they rolled out some 125 cc bike or something (somehow It qualified at the DMV and I passed). Needless to say, I probably should have taken the safety course. I crashed twice .once on the freeway. I took 6 years off but have been riding about 1 year now, and am much safer. I plan on going through a formal class, and know I have a ways to go. I hope this give perspective
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by motomania2007 View Post
Why are you afraid to drop the bike?
Edited to add:
Btw, to be clear dropping is not the same as crashing. Dropping is dropping the bike while stopped or while attempting to get started from a stop...
I may have worded that wrong or you misconstrued the severity but I'm not riding around with a constant fear of dropping it every time I come to a stop.

My bicycle handling skills transferred well into motorcycles but my bike is older with no frame sliders and expensive/rare plastics so I'd prefer not to drop it if I can remain conscious. I only feel iffy when I have to make tight turns from a stop and I'm aware of this which is why I go to empty lots to practice.

Quote:
My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test.
Also in response to OP, the DMV test in CA is just as basic in comparison to the CMSP training except it focuses on very arbitrary "skills". I've watched multiple videos on youtube and outside of riding in a tight circle and doing the slalom, the rest of the test is a joke and I would say leaves riders more vulnerable if they relied solely on the skills they test on.

Last edited by Asudef; 09-21-2016 at 07:16 PM..
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