BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Moto > Riding Skills


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2016, 08:38 PM   #31
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Merced, CA
Motorcycles: BMW R1200R, FZ09, FZR400, CR250R
Name: George
Surj and others, you are 100% correct, the MTC is NOT enough. I don't know anyone that believes it is all the training one needs to ride a motorcycle safely in real world traffic.

The course is a huge compromise. Given the time constraints, it does fairly good, but it could always do better.

I suggest that anyone that has expertise make suggestions to improve it. Just realize that adding something means taking away something already there because of the time constraints.

As the the MTC providing a waiver for the DMV riding test, I have ridden the DMV riding test before and for anyone that can ride, it is a total joke of a test as it barely tests any skills and certainly does not test any skills really relevant to riding in traffic.

IMO MTC requires more skills to pass than the DMV riding test does but I am biased as as an instructor and as an experienced rider that does not see a lot of value in the DMV test so take it for what it is worth.

Steph (OP) and any other new rider, my offer is always open to work with you and help you be a better rider in any way I can.
__________________
If you are not having fun riding a motorcycle, you are doing it wrong.

The best performance upgrade is upgrading the operating system of the operator. It is cheap, easy, fast, safe and works on every bike you will ever ride.

I am also a Patent Attorney so if I can help you with any IP matters, please just ask.
motomania2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 07:48 AM   #32
Frisco
Veteran
 
Frisco's Avatar
 
Contributor +

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Cerrito
Motorcycles: Yammies ‘17 FZ-09 and '13 FJR
Name: Carl
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
Damn, you guys all ROCK!!! Every bit of this helps a lot, thanks sincerely!

PS: My copy of Proficient Motorcycling is in the mail :->>
Frisco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 08:03 AM   #33
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
 
DataDan's Avatar
 
BARF Mod Alumni
BARFie winner 2010 & 2014
Contributor ++++

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Luis Obispo
Motorcycles: Yamaha FJR1300
Name: Dan
I'm going to disagree with a need for substantially more training than that provided by MTC (and MSF previously) in order to become a capable street rider.

OP: There are three crucial skills you need to ride a motorcycle: 1) LOOK where you want to go; 2) countersteer to turn; and 3) progressively squeeze the front brake lever to slow down. These don't transfer from driving a car or riding a bicycle and are most effectively acquired with training. Other skills are required too--such as balance and throttle/clutch actuation--but the Big Three are what you need to get around town safely.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should re-take the class and make sure you come away with a solid understanding of those ideas, even if you haven't yet mastered them physically. Then what you need is lots of practice so you can use them without thinking about them. Get your license, get a motorcycle, and take Two Wheel Tramp up on her offer to help you with parking lot practice.

Most of the skills we talk about here on BARF are really attitudes and mental skills that, IMHO, can't be taught in a classroom. Some you can learn from books, videos, and--yes!--BARF discussions. But mostly you pick them up one by one with years of experience.
__________________
How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.
--Winston Smith

I see four lights!
--Jean Luc Picard

A is A.
--John Galt
DataDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 11:09 AM   #34
Outta Control
Renegade Drone Pilot
 
Outta Control's Avatar
 
Founding Member
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Jose
Motorcycles: 2016 S1000RR Motorrad aka TaZ
Name: OuttaCtrl
Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDan View Post
...IMHO, can't be taught in a classroom. Some you can learn from books, videos, and--yes!--BARF discussions. But mostly you pick them up one by one with years of experience.
Thanks for your opinion DD but books and video can not fully replace human interaction. Especially with questions from a mind and knowledge such as yours.

As you know there is no such thing as multitasking. A human brain can only process and exert either a mental or firing a physical process one thing at a time.

Yes mastering the physical position is important but in my experience that is the easiest part. As some past instructors has stated that it is simple enough that you can train a monkey to do it.

I my perspective 80% of learning to survive on a public road is a mental portion and the rest is on the physical side but that is where the problem may lie. Students that graduated a course and is eager enough to just on a bike irregardless of its size and will use the majority of their brain processing capacity for operating the motorcycle as opposed to creating or systematically adapting to quickly use their brain to switch back and forth between riding judgement and countersteering.

As you and I know there are different kinds of learners. Some are visual and others are more physical and offering other avenues to expand and understand the importance and requirement to safe on the street is invaluable.
__________________
"...A good teacher can never be fixed in a routine...
A teacher must never impose this student to fit his favorite pattern; a good teacher functions as a pointer, exposing his student's vulnerability...
Lee Jun Fan

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell

"Non-stop pursuing of wealth will only turn a person into a twisted being, just like me."..."Material things lost can be found. But there is one thing that can never be found when it is lost – “Life”." Steve Jobs

motorcycling is for everybody, but not everybody is for motorcycling

Last edited by Outta Control; 09-22-2016 at 11:12 AM..
Outta Control is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 10:46 AM   #35
stephanotis
Rookie
 
stephanotis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Francisco
Motorcycles: Honda CB250 Nighthawk
Name: Steph
Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!
stephanotis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 11:01 AM   #36
Outta Control
Renegade Drone Pilot
 
Outta Control's Avatar
 
Founding Member
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Jose
Motorcycles: 2016 S1000RR Motorrad aka TaZ
Name: OuttaCtrl
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!

You are getting it but the physical portion is only limited to just riding, turning, and eyes up concept but how about evasive techniques and emergency braking.

It is easy to say ride your ass off to gain experience but I feel it is naive to just read a book on how to swerve correctly then this somehow will be osmosis to the brain and become mental.

As human it is very easy to say, "yes I will practice and do better" but as history has shown peer pressure and ego takes over a new rider and that the mental portion has to make a choice when it comes to a turn at a more aggressive speed that you can handle.

Which portion of the mental scheme did the brain use up it's processing power. Focusing on getting the turn right to prevent loss of traction or adjusting your focus to prepare for possible hazards around the turn.

It is a double edge sword. Even us instructor, particularly myself constantly practice evasive maneuvers to eliminate and make this the unconscious competent level on the competency scale.
__________________
"...A good teacher can never be fixed in a routine...
A teacher must never impose this student to fit his favorite pattern; a good teacher functions as a pointer, exposing his student's vulnerability...
Lee Jun Fan

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell

"Non-stop pursuing of wealth will only turn a person into a twisted being, just like me."..."Material things lost can be found. But there is one thing that can never be found when it is lost – “Life”." Steve Jobs

motorcycling is for everybody, but not everybody is for motorcycling
Outta Control is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 11:06 AM   #37
Smash Allen
Banned
 
AMA #: 3283336
Contributor ++

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Motorcycles: a fast one
Name: Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outta Control View Post
You are getting it but the physical portion is only limited to just riding, turning, and eyes up concept but how about evasive techniques and emergency braking.

It is easy to say ride your ass off to gain experience but I feel it is naive to just read a book on how to swerve correctly then this somehow will be osmosis to the brain and become mental.

As human it is very easy to say, "yes I will practice and do better" but as history has shown peer pressure and ego takes over a new rider and that the mental portion has to make a choice when it comes to a turn at a more aggressive speed that you can handle.

Which portion of the mental scheme did the brain use up it's processing power. Focusing on getting the turn right to prevent loss of traction or adjusting your focus to prepare for possible hazards around the turn.

It is a double edge sword. Even us instructor, particularly myself constantly practice evasive maneuvers to eliminate and make this the unconscious competent level on the competency scale.
Referring to the Four Stages of Competency, more information can be found here for those interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
Smash Allen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 11:13 AM   #38
Outta Control
Renegade Drone Pilot
 
Outta Control's Avatar
 
Founding Member
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Jose
Motorcycles: 2016 S1000RR Motorrad aka TaZ
Name: OuttaCtrl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash Allen View Post
Referring to the Four Stages of Competency, more information can be found here for those interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence



I prefer this explanation since it include the 5th level:

http://www.drillscience.com/dps/competence4stages.pdf

You know rarely even MotoGP guys stay at the Unconscious Competent for long as they mostly stay on L4 and briefly move up to L5.
__________________
"...A good teacher can never be fixed in a routine...
A teacher must never impose this student to fit his favorite pattern; a good teacher functions as a pointer, exposing his student's vulnerability...
Lee Jun Fan

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell

"Non-stop pursuing of wealth will only turn a person into a twisted being, just like me."..."Material things lost can be found. But there is one thing that can never be found when it is lost – “Life”." Steve Jobs

motorcycling is for everybody, but not everybody is for motorcycling

Last edited by Outta Control; 09-23-2016 at 11:25 AM..
Outta Control is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 11:29 AM   #39
twiggidy
Rookie
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Francisco
Motorcycles: VESPA GTS 300 Super Sport (Meredith), Triumph Bonneville (RiRi)
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!
That's why I kind of stand by my suggestion of starting on a scooter, or a grom if you really want to involve gear shifting. Many of the riding skills as far as braking, swerving, countersteering, etc can be accomplished on a scooter and when you're comfortable with that the move up. My GTS 300 may not have the same horses as a Kawi 300 or R3 but the engine capacity is the same. I was probably in the same boat as you until I started taking my Vespa out on long rides and not just around the town jumps. Getting that thing going fast on Bayshore Blvd or El Camino or Hwy 1 and really "understanding" what countersteering felt like and not having to worry about shifting gears made me just a touch more comfortable when I got on a motorcycle. Then I "shifted" (pun intended) my concentration to starting, clutch/throttle control, braking, etc.
twiggidy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 12:15 PM   #40
tzrider
Write Only User
 
tzrider's Avatar
 
BARF Admin
Contributor +

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Motorcycles: Kaw N1K
Name: Andy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDan View Post
OP: There are three crucial skills you need to ride a motorcycle: 1) LOOK where you want to go; 2) countersteer to turn; and 3) progressively squeeze the front brake lever to slow down. These don't transfer from driving a car or riding a bicycle and are most effectively acquired with training. Other skills are required too--such as balance and throttle/clutch actuation--but the Big Three are what you need to get around town safely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.
Steph, I've quoted Dan above to make sure you see what he wrote.

Similarly to what he said, the California Superbike School developed a safety course for the Marine Corps several years ago that was meant to address motorcycle related deaths among Marines. They found that the leading factors in the crash scenarios were a failure to see the threat, a failure to steer effectively or a failure to brake effectively.

I'm unclear in your comments above about what you consider the mental vs. physical skills. I can definitely agree that some aspects of riding are counterintuitive, including steering. The more correct repetition you get with these skills, the more reliable they become when something surprises you.

In addition to training resources people have mentioned, many riders have begun their riding career with the help of a trusted mentor. That was a significant help to me. I began riding relatively late at age 30. My early mentor was, oddly enough, the man who had been my high school math teacher. I had looked up to him in several ways as a kid and we happened to reconnect around the time I began riding. If there is someone like that in your life, you might consider seeking their guidance.
__________________
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer

California Superbike School tzrider's blog
tzrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2016, 12:59 PM   #41
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
 
DataDan's Avatar
 
BARF Mod Alumni
BARFie winner 2010 & 2014
Contributor ++++

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Luis Obispo
Motorcycles: Yamaha FJR1300
Name: Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanotis View Post
So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.
That's a good summary.

The basic techniques need continuous attention when you're a noob. For example, countersteering: Consciously press on the bar in the direction you want to go EVERY TIME you change direction. Lane change, gentle curve, pulling into a parking space--no exceptions. It is by conscious application of the technique in the beginning that it becomes an unconscious response. Eventually, your brain thinks, "wanna go left" and it just happens. Thanks to imprinting of the skill, it didn't have to fill in: "so I guess I need to press on the left bar." Same with using your eyes to lead the way and progressively squeezing the front brake to stop.

As control of the bike becomes automatic, you have more bandwidth available to understand the road and traffic. That, of course, is the hard part of motorcycling. There's lots of discussion about those topics on BARF (see some of the 1Rider threads). You mentioned that you've ordered Proficient Motorcycling--an excellent resource. Another book by David Hough that I like is called Street Rider's Guide. It is a collection of nearly 100 two-page vignettes on problem situations and solutions (e.g., "Right-Turn Reprobates", "Stale Signals", and "Midtown Mayhem"). The book linked is an update of his earlier Street Strategies, with more entries and much better illustrations.

May you enjoy a million happy miles on a motorcycle.
__________________
How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.
--Winston Smith

I see four lights!
--Jean Luc Picard

A is A.
--John Galt
DataDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2016, 08:52 PM   #42
zixaq
Veteran
 
zixaq's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Francisco
Motorcycles: FZ6
Name: Scott
Proficient Motorcycling is definitely #1 on my recommend list, although I also found Total Control by Lee Parks to be very helpful. Parks is especially good at explaining lines through corners, although Hugh is better at explaining which lines are better on the street.

I'm a year in and there are still a million things to learn.
zixaq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2016, 02:27 PM   #43
stephanotis
Rookie
 
stephanotis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Francisco
Motorcycles: Honda CB250 Nighthawk
Name: Steph
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoAteMySoup View Post
Anyway, here is how my first car driving experience went:
Instructor: Do you smoke?
Me: Yeah
Instructor: I want you to light up a cigarette and smoke as we go through this. It will help you.
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, take a right at El Camino, you gotta get used to driving on the big streets. Don’t put out that cigarette. Get used to riding on the big streets and smoking!
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, you’re good. Here is your certificate.
Ha, that sounds about right, although perhaps over time things got, um, safer? In 1986, when I took my DMV driving test in a (manual) car (in NY, not CA), they had me do 3 right turns around the block and on the last stretch the tester cranked down the window and suddenly screamed out of it at the top of his lungs to see if I'd flinch at abrupt loud noises. I passed (probably growing up in 1970s Brooklyn helped).
But then went on to have 5 accidents within 3 years, one in which I totaled my mom's car.

I'm a late bloomer at this motorcycle adventure. I just think they need to be REALLY FUCKING CLEAR about the fact that we need much more practice off the road after the basic courses.

You guys have come to my rescue on that one. I'll keep spreading the word. Thanks.

Last edited by stephanotis; 09-25-2016 at 02:31 PM..
stephanotis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2016, 02:30 PM   #44
stephanotis
Rookie
 
stephanotis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Francisco
Motorcycles: Honda CB250 Nighthawk
Name: Steph
And that stuff on the stages of learning is priceless for students in general, especially for something as involved as motorcycling. I highly recommend CMSP and all other basic courses hand that out.
stephanotis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2016, 07:46 PM   #45
deadairis
Newbie
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Berkeley
Motorcycles: 2011 Vstrom 650 ABS 2007 SuperDuke 990
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by motomania2007 View Post
Welcome to motorcycling.

I have been an instructor for several years.
<snip>

See my recommendations in my riderzblog post linked in my signature below.

If I can help you ride, just ask. If you want to come out to Merced and play on a TTR125 and ride around my flat track in my back yard, you are welcome to do so and you would learn a lot in the process.
Super helpful, thanks. Only a few months after basic and everything feels fresh, guidance like the blog helps a lot
deadairis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.