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Old 02-18-2019, 10:49 PM   #16
Kalvin00
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I doubt it.

here's a post by Dunlop RTS from a few years ago explaining their position on it.

https://forum.n2td.org/index.php?thr...-better.17462/

the quote says "room temp" specifically. so lets take that as the crossover point and call it 80F. how fast does someone have to go to heat a tire from 50F to 80F? thats "cruising on the freeway" temperature. so a lap on a racetrack should do it no problem for all but the slowest riders.
I do remember something from the Q4 release though, where they had a graph of temperature vs. grip levels in the Q4 vs. slicks. I believe the Q4 had more grip up to ~155 degrees.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...p-q4-tire-test

Found it, about halfway in.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:38 AM   #17
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I do remember something from the Q4 release though, where they had a graph of temperature vs. grip levels in the Q4 vs. slicks. I believe the Q4 had more grip up to ~155 degrees.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...p-q4-tire-test

Found it, about halfway in.
nice, good find. thats def more data.

if we take both pieces of info as fact, this implies that the street tires have improved since the Q2. perhaps the Q3 has more grip than slicks at some temp above "room temp" but lower than 158F. and the Q3+ may at an even higher temp, but still <158F. then u need the Q4 for the whole deal at 158F.

I wonder how slow someone can go and still get their tires to 158F, say on a 600. 158F isnt THAT high. thats 15-30F below warmer temp. Ive helped some B group riders before with tire pressures & temps. on ideal weather days, they tended to not gain heat off the warmers. so thats where id draw the line. of course, on colder days itd take more speed. and on hotter days, itd take less speed.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:38 PM   #18
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how cold has it been in san diego?
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:47 PM   #19
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how cold has it been in san diego?
If only there was some resource that could allow you to revisit historical weather observations for a chosen location?
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:01 PM   #20
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its 58F and sunny at my house right now. gonna rain tmrw and Thurs though. all these storms seem to cover the whole state.

no tracks in SD. my last trackday was wet and in the 50s
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:30 PM   #21
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I doubt it.

here's a post by Dunlop RTS from a few years ago explaining their position on it.

https://forum.n2td.org/index.php?thr...-better.17462/

the quote says "room temp" specifically. so lets take that as the crossover point and call it 80F. how fast does someone have to go to heat a tire from 50F to 80F? thats "cruising on the freeway" temperature. so a lap on a racetrack should do it no problem for all but the slowest riders.
A few thoughts here:

For sure, the Q3/Q4 will work better than a slick in 50 degree temps.

Put your slicks on warmers, set pressures, then have them cool off by the time you reach turn 2. When below 60deg, we typically see the tires come in at a substantially lower pressure then right off the warmers.

Slicks need heat to enable the compounds to work. Very few B/C riders can generate enough force do that, let alone A group riders on a 50 deg Sonoma day. Hell, at Cwalla last week, given the choice between slicks on stock bikes and Q3s, the Rick racers all chose Q3s. On their race bikes, we of course used slicks, but we didn't ride until the afternoon when the track temp could handle a slick and even then we tore tires.

That PSA from RTS is from 2011 and even then, I disagree with that info. Maybe it was so with the Q2, but we're a couple of generations past that. (IMO, the Dunlop GPA front on cold weather is not a smart decision)

It's Sonoma in Feb/March! There's very little grip!

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Old 02-19-2019, 04:04 PM   #22
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Ken, can you quantify "slicks need heat to work" so that its more helpful? even finding lower pressure after a session still means the tire could have been running >158F on track, so slicks would have provided more grip. I think ud need ~3psi lower to be near 158F and your tires still would have been hotter on track.

this whole convo is nitpicking the details because it actually matters. based on the real data here, not just anecdotes from us riders, 20F of carcass temp can actually make the diff btw whether or not a rider should chose Q4s or slicks.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:51 PM   #23
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Ken, can you quantify "slicks need heat to work" so that its more helpful? even finding lower pressure after a session still means the tire could have been running >158F on track, so slicks would have provided more grip. I think ud need ~3psi lower to be near 158F and your tires still would have been hotter on track.

this whole convo is nitpicking the details because it actually matters. based on the real data here, not just anecdotes from us riders, 20F of carcass temp can actually make the diff btw whether or not a rider should chose Q4s or slicks.
To be clear - I am not a Dunlop tire engineer and all of this is solely based on my experience and listening to the engineers I know. Slicks are designed to work at higher overall temps than "street" tires for the demand that is put into them. Street tires work at lower temps, hence why they grip better in colder temps and get greasy in hot temps. With slicks, for the rubber compound to actually properly grip the track surface, it needs to be at a certain temperature for the rubber to work. What those temps are, I don't know...I leave that to the experts. (I left a message for a Dunlop engineer to call me) I totally get the nitpicking and I see that value. But that value is for probably less than 5% of the riders that are reading this, again IMO.

Here's what I do know....If I were racing at Sonoma and was using the upcoming days to test my motorcycle, to race, AND I could I run a pace that would induce proper grip, I would run race tires. Mainly for the geometry characteristics that I would want to be feeling from my bike. I could also see how fundamental rear grip was...If you are off the pace 5+ seconds from your race times, you won't get an accurate gauge of what real side grip is, especially from the front....the lean angle just won't be there.

Now, If I were racing and doing track days and my pace was slower than 5 seconds off what my best was or say 10 seconds off the ultimate track record and I wanted to shake off the cobwebs to work on my riding....I would be on a Q3 type tire, no question. Set the pressure in the morning and leave it.

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Old 02-19-2019, 08:28 PM   #24
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To be clear - I am not a Dunlop tire engineer and all of this is solely based on my experience and listening to the engineers I know. Slicks are designed to work at higher overall temps than "street" tires for the demand that is put into them. Street tires work at lower temps, hence why they grip better in colder temps and get greasy in hot temps. With slicks, for the rubber compound to actually properly grip the track surface, it needs to be at a certain temperature for the rubber to work. What those temps are, I don't know...I leave that to the experts. (I left a message for a Dunlop engineer to call me) I totally get the nitpicking and I see that value. But that value is for probably less than 5% of the riders that are reading this, again IMO.

Here's what I do know....If I were racing at Sonoma and was using the upcoming days to test my motorcycle, to race, AND I could I run a pace that would induce proper grip, I would run race tires. Mainly for the geometry characteristics that I would want to be feeling from my bike. I could also see how fundamental rear grip was...If you are off the pace 5+ seconds from your race times, you won't get an accurate gauge of what real side grip is, especially from the front....the lean angle just won't be there.

Now, If I were racing and doing track days and my pace was slower than 5 seconds off what my best was or say 10 seconds off the ultimate track record and I wanted to shake off the cobwebs to work on my riding....I would be on a Q3 type tire, no question. Set the pressure in the morning and leave it.

Ken
Do you have any experience with the Michelin SC3's?

I was planning on running them for this weekend at Sonoma. Or would you still recommend a Q3, I have a set of those as well.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:56 PM   #25
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Thank you for all of the great info.

I have been waffling- I have no doubt that I am capable of keeping heat in the tires, but I haven't been on an SV for 10yrs and I haven't been to Sears Point in probably 15, so there are definitely cobwebs to shake off.

I probably wouldn't have even asked this question if it weren't for the sound the tires made when I dropped them on the floor while mounting them last week. Sounded like a solid piece of plastic instead of rubber!

I hate the cold...
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:56 PM   #26
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Do you have any experience with the Michelin SC3's?

I was planning on running them for this weekend at Sonoma. Or would you still recommend a Q3, I have a set of those as well.
I don't have any experience with that tire...Q3, Q4s, Pirelli and Bstones are about it on the trackday tires....

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Old 02-19-2019, 10:51 PM   #27
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I don't have any experience with that tire...Q3, Q4s, Pirelli and Bstones are about it on the trackday tires....

Ken
Thanks for the great info and great videos, I put on a fresh Pirelli SC3 rear for Sonoma Saturday, now it's got me wondering !! To late and no time to change, being I'm a large guy (fat pig) maybe that will help put some heat into the tires
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:16 AM   #28
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Gonna be running Metzeler M7 RR's, on my 01' sv650 with stock rear size. How comparable are the RR's to lets say a Q3?
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:32 AM   #29
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Thank you for all of the great info.

I have been waffling- I have no doubt that I am capable of keeping heat in the tires, but I haven't been on an SV for 10yrs and I haven't been to Sears Point in probably 15, so there are definitely cobwebs to shake off.

I probably wouldn't have even asked this question if it weren't for the sound the tires made when I dropped them on the floor while mounting them last week. Sounded like a solid piece of plastic instead of rubber!

I hate the cold...
I probably will mount up some street tires on my SV for my first Sears Point trackday.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:33 AM   #30
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Thanks for the great info and great videos, I put on a fresh Pirelli SC3 rear for Sonoma Saturday, now it's got me wondering !! To late and no time to change, being I'm a large guy (fat pig) maybe that will help put some heat into the tires
Good choice for a slick.
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