BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Club House > Who Let the Smoke Out!?


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2020, 10:23 AM   #46
Biga
Near Miss Racing #96
 
Biga's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Motorcycles: 250 Ninja "A" R3 600 GSXR TS 185 150 Scooter 97cc D. Bug
Name: Rod
the best thread in the entire forum!!!
__________________
CMRA# 672
Biga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2020, 11:31 AM   #47
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Quote:
Originally Posted by atoyf View Post
this is some cool staff!
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty View Post
You make it seem so easy. I'll just go make a few swingarms...
looking forward to the next update.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biga View Post
the best thread in the entire forum!!!
Thanks everyone. I appreciate the props!

As for "making it seam so easy"... I think life is funny that way. I've always been good at making things. On the other hand, put me in a room full of people and I have no clue what to do. A good friend of mine could walk into a bar full of strangers and by the end of the night be best friends with everyone in the place. I have no idea how he does that.

I remember taking a beginning drawing class my first semester in design school. We were learning the basics of light and shadows. One day the instructor decided to show us samples of what the fourth semester students were working on. They were creating these beautiful renderings of robotic chrome creatures. We were blown away and all of us had the same thought... there was no way we could do that! Of course by the time we got to fourth semester we had the knowledge of how to render something to look like chrome, and a little more confidence in our abilities. When we got to the chrome creature assignment it was very easy.

So I guess like most things in life, it all comes down to a little understanding of the process, and a bunch of confidence in executing on the process.

20170529_153826 by andbike, on Flickr
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2020, 12:56 PM   #48
Lonster
GaMMa RaNGeR
 
Lonster's Avatar
 
AMA #: 305491
Budman's errand boy
Barf Brick and smoking Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Emerald Triangle
Motorcycles: RG500 Gamma, 2020 KTM 890 Duke R, Lucky Strike 750, RD400, 525EXC-G SM
Name: Lonster
I guess you got it covered, huh?
Do you need a test rider? ��
__________________
Lnster
R.I.P. Champ Nicky Hayden
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming– “Wow! What a Ride!”
— Hunter S. Thompson
Lonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 05:00 PM   #49
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonster View Post
... Do you need a test rider? ��
I actually do. I have a race team on the east coast who will be getting a prototype frame and another person (street rider) locally who will also be building one of the prototype frames. If you were a little closer I'd invite you to take a ride. Getting feedback from the perspective of others is part of my process. When I built my AK-1 frames, it was very helpful having the feedback from my two riders. Their feedback led to a major design change which greatly improved the ergonomics (and the look) of the bike.

Last edited by Frame Maker; 12-17-2020 at 05:03 PM..
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 06:03 PM   #50
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Part 4: building the prototype frame (continued)

With two swingarms complete, its time to begin the frames. The process is the same... rough cut the tubing, notch as needed, then a little hand finishing with a file till the fit is nice. Use plywood fixtures as need. Then tack weld in place on the main frame fixture. Keep in mind that the frame is being built upside-down in the fixture.

The most challenging part of the process is getting the tubes notched in the correct positions. Sometimes I'll intentionally cut a little on the long side and take incremental cuts after that till the fit is nearly perfect. Many of the simple horizontal cut I'll do on my big Hitachi mill since it is a horizontal machine and very rigid. More complex cuts I'll do on my Bridgeport mill since it has the ability to swing the head in two axis.


Here are a few of photos of the cutting, notching, and fitting process:

20200911_155556 by andbike, on Flickr

20200911_164941 by andbike, on Flickr

20200911_190140 by andbike, on Flickr

20200912_114319 by andbike, on Flickr

20200912_175510 by andbike, on Flick


20200912_144012 by andbike, on Flickr


With a few basic tubes tacked in place I can now take what I've started out of the fixture for an initial inspection:

20200916_165849 by andbike, on Flickr

With everything looking good so far, its back into the fixture for a few more pieces to be added...

20200919_133838 by andbike, on Flickr

20200919_145654 by andbike, on Flickr

20200919_173746 by andbike, on Flickr


Then back out of the fixture for another inspection. Still looking good...

20200920_105938 by andbike, on Flickr


There are large and small metal gussets and each will have a large radius bend to match the frame tubes. I've made a special press tool for forming the bends. The sheet metal laser cut to approximate size (with the bend calculated). Notice the alignment features added at each end. Those are to be trimmed off after forming.

20200920_110447 by andbike, on Flickr

20200920_121120 by andbike, on Flickr

20200920_123425 by andbike, on Flickr


The fit is nearly perfect. I love it when the CAD is correct!

20200920_123445 by andbike, on Flickr

20200920_123508 by andbike, on Flickr


The frame is asymmetric on the bottom to allow for better exhaust clearance on the right side, so the long gussets going on the right side get trimmed...

20200920_133452 by andbike, on Flickr

Now comes one of the more challenging operations on the whole build. The long gussets need to get a large round notch cut where the swingarm holders will fit. This requires cutting the notches with a very large hole saw while the frame is held in the fixture while on the mill. First step is to completely disassembly the frame fixture and VERY carefully move it to the table of my big mill. I don't have an exact weight for the fixture, but good guess is 150lbs or more. Lets just say, its not exactly something that is easy to just pick up and set down someplace else... although that's about how I would move it. A few days later I have a friend assist me with moving it back to the rack it normally sits on.

On the mill and re-assembled...

20200920_200639 by andbike, on Flickr
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 06:10 PM   #51
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
With the frame now back in the fixture and positioned on the mill table, its ready to notch each side. I have indexing holes in the risers blocks that I use to locate the the center of each cutting operation. Using the indexing holes, I position the machine for each cut, then remove the riser blocks and make the cut. First on one side, then the complete assembly gets rotated 180 degrees, re-positioned, then make the cut on the opposite side.

20200920_174628 by andbike, on Flickr

20200920_175756 by andbike, on Flickr


With the big notches completed, its ready for the first test assembly... and my first OH SHIT moment!

20200921_201540 by andbike, on Flickr


To be continued...
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 08:52 PM   #52
Lonster
GaMMa RaNGeR
 
Lonster's Avatar
 
AMA #: 305491
Budman's errand boy
Barf Brick and smoking Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Emerald Triangle
Motorcycles: RG500 Gamma, 2020 KTM 890 Duke R, Lucky Strike 750, RD400, 525EXC-G SM
Name: Lonster
Oooooh, Ahhhhhhh.
__________________
Lnster
R.I.P. Champ Nicky Hayden
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming– “Wow! What a Ride!”
— Hunter S. Thompson
Lonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 08:55 PM   #53
Lonster
GaMMa RaNGeR
 
Lonster's Avatar
 
AMA #: 305491
Budman's errand boy
Barf Brick and smoking Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Emerald Triangle
Motorcycles: RG500 Gamma, 2020 KTM 890 Duke R, Lucky Strike 750, RD400, 525EXC-G SM
Name: Lonster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frame Maker View Post
I actually do. I have a race team on the east coast who will be getting a prototype frame and another person (street rider) locally who will also be building one of the prototype frames. If you were a little closer I'd invite you to take a ride. Getting feedback from the perspective of others is part of my process. When I built my AK-1 frames, it was very helpful having the feedback from my two riders. Their feedback led to a major design change which greatly improved the ergonomics (and the look) of the bike.
Keep me in mind. I can be very flexible with my schedule and location.
__________________
Lnster
R.I.P. Champ Nicky Hayden
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming– “Wow! What a Ride!”
— Hunter S. Thompson
Lonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 10:41 AM   #54
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonster View Post
Keep me in mind. I can be very flexible with my schedule and location.
The prototype is currently apart for some design changes, but we can keep the conversation going. Let me know the next time you're in the bay area. Meeting in person and getting to know each other would be a good first start.
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 02:51 PM   #55
Lonster
GaMMa RaNGeR
 
Lonster's Avatar
 
AMA #: 305491
Budman's errand boy
Barf Brick and smoking Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Emerald Triangle
Motorcycles: RG500 Gamma, 2020 KTM 890 Duke R, Lucky Strike 750, RD400, 525EXC-G SM
Name: Lonster
Ya, but Chaz likes me! lol
I'll be as far south as the Sac airport on January second. Otherwise, I'll contact you the next trip to Santa Cruz for a meet and greet.
__________________
Lnster
R.I.P. Champ Nicky Hayden
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming– “Wow! What a Ride!”
— Hunter S. Thompson
Lonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2020, 06:03 PM   #56
bergmen
Veteran
 
bergmen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ukiah, California
Motorcycles: 2014 Yamaha FJR1300A
Name: Dan
Incredible design, engineering and fabrication skills here! This makes the engine mount design for the ZGRX 1200 Concours look like tiddly-winks in comparison.

Outstanding workmanship!

Dan
bergmen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2020, 02:15 PM   #57
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Incredible design, engineering and fabrication skills here! This makes the engine mount design for the ZGRX 1200 Concours look like tiddly-winks in comparison.

Outstanding workmanship!

Dan
Thank you Dan. Your comments are much appreciated. By the way, the work you did on your Concours project was no small task. I very much enjoyed reading through your thread. You put a lot of time and detailed thought into every detail of the conversion. Very well done!
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2020, 02:27 PM   #58
budman
General Menace
 
budman's Avatar
 
AMA Life Member #203453
Highway Aviator
Founding Member
Top Percent Poster
Community Contributor + BB
Moto Junkie

Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palo Alto, Ca.
Motorcycles: Keep me rocking life
Name: Budman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frame Maker View Post
With the frame now back in the fixture and positioned on the mill table, its ready to notch each side. I have indexing holes in the risers blocks that I use to locate the the center of each cutting operation. Using the indexing holes, I position the machine for each cut, then remove the riser blocks and make the cut. First on one side, then the complete assembly gets rotated 180 degrees, re-positioned, then make the cut on the opposite side.

20200920_174628 by andbike, on Flickr

20200920_175756 by andbike, on Flickr


With the big notches completed, its ready for the first test assembly... and my first OH SHIT moment!

20200921_201540 by andbike, on Flickr


To be continued...
Looks sweet!
budman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2020, 07:53 PM   #59
bergmen
Veteran
 
bergmen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ukiah, California
Motorcycles: 2014 Yamaha FJR1300A
Name: Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frame Maker View Post
Thank you Dan. Your comments are much appreciated. By the way, the work you did on your Concours project was no small task. I very much enjoyed reading through your thread. You put a lot of time and detailed thought into every detail of the conversion. Very well done!
Thank you Julian!

Dan
bergmen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2020, 01:23 PM   #60
Frame Maker
Veteran
 
Frame Maker's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Livermore
Motorcycles: sportbikes, dirtbikes, and some odd bikes that I've built myself.
Name: Julian
Part 4: building the prototype frame (continued)

My design process includes building an accurate CAD model of the frame and other bits that I'll be fabricating. However, existing parts aren't always accurately represented in the CAD model. The most obvious is the engine. I do enter the mounting points into CAD. I also include a side-view photo that is scaled very close to 100% that I can use for side profile reference. Other than that, I don't have an accurate 3D representation of the engine, so this leaves some guess work and many small details can be overlooked.

With the initial engine fitment (above photo) I discover a few areas of interference. First, the large round holders for the swingarm cups are extremely close to the cases. I kinda expected they would be close, but maybe not as close. Then at the front of the engine there are several areas of interference. First being the right side radiator hose. This would require machining a pocket into the front mounting plate. Next, the support bosses behind the mounting plates interfere with the engine cases because of draft on the case castings which I didn't account for. So these will also need to have some material machined away. All in all, not too bad. I carefully mark the areas that need to be trimmed with a Sharpie and prepare to do so minor modifications to these parts. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

I feel comfortable that I can proceed with the frame construction as designed and only need minor adjusting of the smaller CNC machined parts. Next steps are to get the frame on wheels and begin on the rear sub-frame. I also want to verify that both rear suspension configurations are fitting properly. There is a configuration for a single shock using a TZR250 3XV swingarm, and a more custom dual shock version using my own swingarm and dual Ohlins shocks from a Yamaha snowmobile.

20200927_110958 by andbike, on Flickr

20200927_171415 by andbike, on Flickr

Both rear suspension configurations fit well, so I move on to the sub-frame. The main frame is accurately modeled in CAD, but the rear sub-frame is modeled very rough. There are too many complex existing parts that need to fit to it, so construction the the sub-frame is mostly figured out on the fly. I start with fitting the tank, then moving rearward adding seat mounts, battery box, brackets for electrical component, and ending at the tail light. Oh, and one other detail... since Dirtbag is now a 3-day event with two nights of camping I'll need some provision for securing a tent and sleeping bag to the bike. So a utility rack will be integrated into the sub-frame. Its likely to be fugly, but I'll plan to remove it and add a proper race tail later.

20200929_143559 by andbike, on Flickr

20200929_143613 by andbike, on Flickr

20200929_145341 by andbike, on Flickr


Wait, there is one more process that I almost forgot about. This bike still needs to get a VIN and DMV title. So here's what needs to happen... the tail light I plan to use doesn't have the little white license plate light that is required by the vehicle code. I also don't plan to use turn signals (I know, I'm a bad boy). However I will need these items to pass a "brake and lamp inspection". If you look close you'll see temporary brackets welded to the end of the sub-frame. These are for mounting the stock OEM tail light (which has the required license plate light) and turn signals.

20201005_102553 by andbike, on Flickr

First stop on the list is CHP for an initial inspection and assignment of a CA VIN "blue tag". The blue tag is what the state of California requires on all home built vehicles to act as the VIN. These tags are applied by a qualified inspection officer at the CHP.

The first complication in this process is getting an appointment with the CHP. It is now late August. Time is running out on my build window and my local CHP inspector has been temporarily re-assigned to traffic duty in one of the fire areas. CHP policy is that you are first required to use the field office closest to your home. For me this is the Dublin office... but my inspection officer isn't available and no one knows when he'll be back. At the time I was helping a friend in Tracy with a project so I stop at the Tracy CHP office and explain the situation. The inspection officer there is very sympathetic, but stalls so that he has a few days to get an okay from the Dublin office to look at my bike. This takes up another week or so. By then the Dublin inspection officer is back in and I'm able to make an appointment. Yeh, finally!

I have six or seven other motorcycles that have been "blue tagged" for various reasons. The actual tag is a thin aluminum foil with super strong adhesive on the back. It also has a small hole at each end for the option of adding rivets. Ive always opted to not use the rivets. I arrive for my inspection and all goes well. The bike doesn't need to run, it just needs to have the appearance of a complete vehicle. We discuss placement of the blue tag and I suggest a location forward on the frame near the steering head as where you'd normally find the VIN location. We have a brief discussion about the use of rivets (or not) and the officer goes inside to complete the paperwork. After a longer than normal duration he comes out and says that he's decided that he's NOT going to put a tag on my motorcycle since I don't want to drill holes in the frame for rivets. He suggests that I add an "extra plate" somewhere that I can safely drill holes into. Oh, and by the way, he's taking a medical leave for 5 weeks. Fuck! He must have felt my frustration and offers to re-inspect the bike and apply the tag if I can return the next day.

Back home, I add the plate which is larger than I visualized and in an area where I had planned to add some diagonal bracing later on. So I decide to put in the diagonals at the same time to make sure everything fits and I still have space for the plate.

20201007_112655 by andbike, on Flickr



Bike is back together and off to the CHP again...

20201007_173250 by andbike, on Flickr



Success! I get the blue tag!

20201008_110735 by andbike, on Flickr

Next step is to get the bike running and off to an inspection station for the brake and lamp inspection. There is some gray area to this part of the process. Several years ago you could go to any moto mechanic and have him verify that the lights and brakes are working and they would sign a simple statement of facts. Now DMV wants official certificates which most moto repair shops don't have. The only exception is if there isn't a repair shop in your area with the proper certificates. The closest shop is in Castro Valley and I'm in Livermore. According to the DMV this IS in my area.

I've used the shop in Castro Valley before and the tech there is SUPER picky about details. One time he failed me because the earlier mentioned license plate light was visible from the rear. Apparently that is not acceptable. Another time he failed me because my rear brake was slightly spongy (he wants the pedal to be rock hard). So what would go wrong this time I thought? Both brakes were rock hard. No white lights were visible from the rear. Everything worked including a horn (which isn't checked).

The inspection goes perfect... till we get inside to do the paperwork. Crap, now what? On the CHP paperwork they list the model year as "0000". The tech says this isn't correct. He wants a specific year. I mention that I have two other bikes titled as SPCN (special construction) and that those vehicles also show the model year as four zeros. The owner of the shop jumps into the conversation and suggests that he do the same. At this point he is getting very agitated and suggests that I go to DMV to have them confirm the year then come back and get the certificates. Time is running out. If I'm going to make Dirtbag I don't have time to do that. Extremely reluctantly he fills out the certificates with the "0000" year and I'm off to DMV.

By some strange act of God, I'm in and out of the DMV in about 20 minutes with NO APPOINTMENT! This isn't my first beauty pageant so I have everything in order and the process goes perfectly! The next day I call the owner of the shop in Castro Valley just as a courtesy to let him know that DMV also recorded the year as "0000". He is much appreciative.

I can now cut off the temporary tail light brackets and finish the back of the sub-frame.

to be continued...
Frame Maker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.