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Old 10-13-2019, 07:36 AM   #1
Dubbington
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Arrested for Manufacturing & Let Go - Receiver Terminology

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html

Interesting read on how this guy was watched by the ATF/DOJ, given notices to stop, kept going making AR in his machine shop, finally arrested but then let off because.....

Defense argued the DOJ and ATF essentially don't have the correct definition of a receiver and the definition they are using does not apply to an AR-15 lower.

The judge agreed.

Prosecutors dropped the case because they determined if they went through and lost it would put thousands of more AR15 in circulation.

Not sure where it stands now as far the definition and law.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:26 PM   #2
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Wow!

Very interesting.

Now, mind, I'm a "spirit of the law" kind of guy, and often times, this "lawyering" annoys me. When I see a basket of "magazine repair kits" on a gun show table, it does annoy me. 2A fundamentalist or no, simply because spirit of the law is how reasonable people interact with each other.

But, lawyers are lawyers, and they do lawyer things, and the letter of the law is what matters.

So, this is interesting to watch.

I'm curious about the $25 club fee to not sell to the general public. That was an interesting twist.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:54 AM   #3
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The business is selling a not-a-firearm 80% lower.

The customer is just pushing the start button on the pre-programmed CNC machine thereby finishing the job doing personal build. Up to the customer to add serial# and register.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:02 PM   #4
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The business is selling a not-a-firearm 80% lower.

The customer is just pushing the start button on the pre-programmed CNC machine thereby finishing the job doing personal build. Up to the customer to add serial# and register.
But, the point of the charges/case being dropped is that an AR-15 lower does not meet the requirements to be a receiver, which is what is considered a firearm by law. The ATF has been interpreting the law to say that a lower IS a firearm, the federal judge warned the ATF that they would likely lose the case and destroy their interpretation if they took it to trial.

If that happened, folks would be able to buy AR lowers without serial #s, without a background check and without it being a firearm
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:10 PM   #5
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Whatever happened to that Dr. Death guy from San Jose that the ATF raided for conducting CNC build parties?
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:36 PM   #6
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Vader Tactical on Calguns was raised not too long ago and strong armed by the ATF. They took a lot of his stuff; tools, lowers, computers, years of hiking photos, personal drawings.

I'll find the post when I get home. He just engraved, nothing more. Well sold 80% lowers but that's legal. They took stuff and said 'we aren't gonna press charges if if stop'....something like that. Said there were like a dozen agents fully armed come to his place. Similar deal in they threatened more charges that seemed bogus but would kill him in legal feels.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubbington View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html

Interesting read on how this guy was watched by the ATF/DOJ, given notices to stop, kept going making AR in his machine shop, finally arrested but then let off because.....

Defense argued the DOJ and ATF essentially don't have the correct definition of a receiver and the definition they are using does not apply to an AR-15 lower.

The judge agreed.

Prosecutors dropped the case because they determined if they went through and lost it would put thousands of more AR15 in circulation.

Not sure where it stands now as far the definition and law.

Trial courts like the one that made this decision, do not have precedential effect to change the law.

what the prosecution feared was that if they persisted in this prosecution and then lost on appeal in an appeal court then that appeals court ruling would have undermined their enforcement efforts because The appeals court ruling would have changed the law with regard to the definition of a receiver.

And the real issue is that the ATF issues regulations but regulations are not law regulations are the processes and mechanisms used to enforce the law. And the ATF does not want a court to overrule how they've been regulating the law regarding receivers. So and the prosecutions judgment it was easier to drop the case than it was to risk the ATF regulation regarding receivers.

unfortunate thing is that no one else can rely on this ruling by the trial court that dismissed the case because it is not an appeals court.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by kelsodeez View Post
Whatever happened to that Dr. Death guy from San Jose that the ATF raided for conducting CNC build parties?
I think he had to do a little time..? There was also seesm here on barf that got in trouble for something like that, but I think there were other elements at play. I've chatted with both of them and they seemed like good dudes. Have a really hard time thinking of them as actual "criminals".
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Old 10-15-2019, 05:24 AM   #9
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according to who? lawyer or not it's the letter of the law that matters.
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Originally Posted by berth View Post
simply because spirit of the law is how reasonable people interact with each other.

But, lawyers are lawyers, and they do lawyer things, and the letter of the law is what matters.

So, this is interesting to watch.

I'm curious about the $25 club fee to not sell to the general public. That was an interesting twist.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:54 AM   #10
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according to who? lawyer or not it's the letter of the law that matters.
Interpretation of the law, via case law, is actually what matters.

That is exactly why this case was dismissed, because the ATF's interpretation and implementation of the law is at risk. In this case, the judge was saying that the letter of the law would be applied. But there are MANY interpretations that have worked out differently.

Last edited by RightCoastBias; 10-15-2019 at 11:55 AM..
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