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Old 01-06-2019, 09:20 AM   #1
jacob11379
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I signed up for 2 day school in March Las Vegas Speedway....But I dont know if the class is full as of now.

Anybody on here taking that class? or possibly another class with them this year?

And for those of you that have or might teach there quick question. I thought the website was saying the 2 day class covered all 4 levels but searching for threads in this forum I found one from 2012 saying it will only cover 2 levels. Which i assume if I havent done a level will mean I will complete the first 2 levels?

ANy feedback on 2 day class welcome.
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:55 PM   #2
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When I took it last summer at Laguna Seca, we covered level 1 on the first day and level 2 on the second day. I'm pretty sure that regardless of your skill level, if this is the first time you are taking any of their instruction, they will start you off at level 1.
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Old 01-06-2019, 04:34 PM   #3
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Old 01-06-2019, 05:05 PM   #4
jacob11379
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thats a real bummer...

I mean its great that they only do 1 level per day and give you more time to work on skills rather than consolidating to 4 levels in 2 days.

But for $2500 class of two levels I can do all 4 levels for like $1800...

Considering I have bike and gear! Is it worth paying so much more to use their stuff and a slightly extended class? $880 for 2 levels using my stuff or $2550 using their stuff plus a $1700 deposit I think I read in addition to the class fee.

I dont have a problem spending money to reach my goals, keep me safe. But it does need to make sense.

Anybody have feedback that adds the additional value of 2 day camp over doing two single days?
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:09 PM   #5
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They do a specific drill every session out, so there is really no way to change their one level a day set up.

I have not done the two-day camps, so I can't speak to that. Personally, the single day camps have been great. I have done the school seven times, each time with a single day. Some tracks are more expensive for them and two-day only--including Vegas. If you're near Vegas, you can consider dipping your toes in with a single day at Streets of Willows. It is their home track, so they have a lot of single days there. You can do back to back single days.

One nice thing about their bike is they handle everything, including fuel top offs, so you can maximize your time learning and hanging out in the paddock. But if you already have a bike, it can save you a lot of cash to bring your own. On the flip side, if anything mechanical happens, a rental means you get assigned another bike instead of having to wrench on your own bike.

If you want to switch, you should do it early. The school has two different sign up lists, rental and BYOB. Just because there is rental room does not mean there is BYOB room for any given date.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:56 AM   #6
jacob11379
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I went ahead and canceled that 2 day camp at Las Vegas and signed up for the 2 individual days on 16th and 17th as well as Code Race on 18th and 19th at streets of willows.

Spoke with staff for a while this morning and that seemed to be better aligned with what I'm interested in.

Thanks for assistannce.....

Anybody on here doing those days?
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:09 PM   #7
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You should dig it. Nothing else like it when I was riding. Might be some closer now, but Code does a good job of grabbing your mind and showing you how to apply it.

Good to hear your going on back to back days vs time in between.
That is a win to me as you still have all the first level one stuff fresh.

Have fun Jacob.

Tell Keith Budman says hello.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:14 PM   #8
jacob11379
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You should dig it. Nothing else like it when I was riding. Might be some closer now, but Code does a good job of grabbing you mind and showing you how to apply it.

Good to hear your going on back to back days vs time in between.
That is a win to me as you still have all the first level one stuff fresh.

Have fun Jacob.

Tell Keith Budman says hello.

I will tell him.....

I agree, the back to back was much more interesting to me. My only concern is getting too tired. especially with Race class as they have races at end of day and if i recall conversation correctly there is a bit more riding in those classes(think he said 175miles a day) and I suspect ill be pushing myself a bit more than on single level days. SO, just gonna pay attention, apply what i learn, relax and have fun.

Taking RV, already reserved space with full hook ups

And I think i have a partner trying to go as well...

Honestly, cant remember the last time I was this excited about something...nothing much in life gets me excited like riding a bike at the track, i dont even ride on the street anymore.

I also picked up a 2013 ZX10r from a racer that I havent even got to the track yet. Great bike at a great price but buying in December is straight torture....

Not to mention I got a new suit, gloves, boots, helmet for Christmas....At least i can wear that around the house!

Last edited by jacob11379; 01-07-2019 at 07:35 PM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:28 AM   #9
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FWIW I can't say enough good things about these guys. Did levels 1 and 2 in single-day classes the last two years. Next month I'm going to Vegas to splurge on the 2-day for levels 3 and 4. Looking forward to the 2-1 student-coach ratio they give you for the more expensive classes, and also it's super convenient to ride their BMWs. They're great bikes and you don't worry about anything, including fuel or tire wear.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:04 PM   #10
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Cancel your Code days. It's really only levels 1-3 as 4 is total BS filler. Sign up to a https://www.rickdiculousracing.com/ weekend. Three times the learning with the same one on one coaching. I did both and Ken Hill really unlocked the track for me. You wouldn't catch me dead giving Keith another penny of my money. Though he is an all around nice guy.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:50 PM   #11
jacob11379
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Originally Posted by shouldnthave View Post
Cancel your Code days. It's really only levels 1-3 as 4 is total BS filler. Sign up to a https://www.rickdiculousracing.com/ weekend. Three times the learning with the same one on one coaching. I did both and Ken Hill really unlocked the track for me. You wouldn't catch me dead giving Keith another penny of my money. Though he is an all around nice guy.

I can respect the honest feedback on your experience and appreciate you posting this link, I will certainly look into it...

With that said, I have never raced and only have about 6 track days under my belt. While i feel like I pick up information and have a good ability to apply it rather quickly im sure these classes will be a bit overwhelming and the amount of growth will be to my satisfaction....

But a couple of my Character defects are competitiveness and perfection so generally schools of various kinds ive taken throughout life are a short term fulfillment. So I highly doubt that this will be my last class...
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:55 PM   #12
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While I haven’t done one of Ken Hill’s courses, I have listened to his podcast. One thing stands out to me that makes his teaching style different from Keith Code.

At CSS, when techniques are taught, they are taught from “first principles”, which is to say, physics. They explain how the principles of physics (or human physiology) act on motorcycles, and then draw conclusions from that o how we should ride. If there’s any doubt, they use experimentation to validate their claims, like when they demonstrate counter-steering using slow motion video, or a rider steering with fingertip pressure.

Conversely, what I hear Ken Hill using to justify his claims in the podcast is “this is what the best in the world are doing, and you want to be doing what the best in the world are doing.”

I don’t want to knock Ken Hill, but the science/first principles approach resonates more with me. Part of what I think when I hear Ken talk about what the best in the world are doing is “but what if there’s a better way than what they’re doing? How would you ever find that if you’re just trying to replicate what’s already being done and not considering the ‘why’ behind i?” Also, anecdotally I never really “got” counter-steering and relaxing on the bars in a turn until he instructors at CSS explained the physics of it. When it went from “just do this because that’s what you’re supposed to do” to a true understanding of the forces at work, everything clicked for me. Not only did I understand more, but my brain applied it better and with more confidence/conviction as a result of that understanding.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravisman View Post
While I haven’t done one of Ken Hill’s courses, I have listened to his podcast. One thing stands out to me that makes his teaching style different from Keith Code.

At CSS, when techniques are taught, they are taught from “first principles”, which is to say, physics. They explain how the principles of physics (or human physiology) act on motorcycles, and then draw conclusions from that o how we should ride. If there’s any doubt, they use experimentation to validate their claims, like when they demonstrate counter-steering using slow motion video, or a rider steering with fingertip pressure.

Conversely, what I hear Ken Hill using to justify his claims in the podcast is “this is what the best in the world are doing, and you want to be doing what the best in the world are doing.”

I don’t want to knock Ken Hill, but the science/first principles approach resonates more with me. Part of what I think when I hear Ken talk about what the best in the world are doing is “but what if there’s a better way than what they’re doing? How would you ever find that if you’re just trying to replicate what’s already being done and not considering the ‘why’ behind i?” Also, anecdotally I never really “got” counter-steering and relaxing on the bars in a turn until he instructors at CSS explained the physics of it. When it went from “just do this because that’s what you’re supposed to do” to a true understanding of the forces at work, everything clicked for me. Not only did I understand more, but my brain applied it better and with more confidence/conviction as a result of that understanding.
Yeah, I get that, but what I feel your takeaway misses a few key points. With Ken you get instructions. Do this and see results. I'm also a very analytical man. But the absolute most frustrating thing I found with my 4 (extremely expensive) dealings with Keith is his self help approach. Every swingle session he (I had him as my one on the last two levels, but one and two were the same) would ask what I thought I did wrong. What -> I <- thought I did wrong. Bitch! I didn't just pay you $2,300 so you could ask me Fucking questions. I paid you $2,300 so YOU could tell me what I'm doing wrong. I can easily continue to question myself after every track session for what I paid to be there.

I had full on screaming matches with my coaches on the whole BS Scientology therapy bullshit. I'll stab the next person to death I give $2,300 to that asks me what I think I just did wrong.

I know I fell off there at the end. I don't take schooling lightly especially when it's for a limited time at an exorbitant cost. I'll take Ken hill bopping me back into place for two days over some jackass asking me the same query rolling around in my head already. I took all 4 CSS, and a two day at RR knocked 6 seconds off my lad times.

I understand everyone learns differently, but be wise by understanding the best place for your dollar.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:56 AM   #14
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Never having been to any of the schools, learning how to evaluate your riding/mistakes is a good thing... but it should be first he asks you what you think you did wrong, and then tells you what he thinks you did wrong.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravisman View Post
While I haven’t done one of Ken Hill’s courses, I have listened to his podcast. One thing stands out to me that makes his teaching style different from Keith Code.

At CSS, when techniques are taught, they are taught from “first principles”, which is to say, physics. They explain how the principles of physics (or human physiology) act on motorcycles, and then draw conclusions from that o how we should ride. If there’s any doubt, they use experimentation to validate their claims, like when they demonstrate counter-steering using slow motion video, or a rider steering with fingertip pressure.

Conversely, what I hear Ken Hill using to justify his claims in the podcast is “this is what the best in the world are doing, and you want to be doing what the best in the world are doing.”

I don’t want to knock Ken Hill, but the science/first principles approach resonates more with me. Part of what I think when I hear Ken talk about what the best in the world are doing is “but what if there’s a better way than what they’re doing? How would you ever find that if you’re just trying to replicate what’s already being done and not considering the ‘why’ behind i?” Also, anecdotally I never really “got” counter-steering and relaxing on the bars in a turn until he instructors at CSS explained the physics of it. When it went from “just do this because that’s what you’re supposed to do” to a true understanding of the forces at work, everything clicked for me. Not only did I understand more, but my brain applied it better and with more confidence/conviction as a result of that understanding.
I've had plenty of "physics" conversations with Ken Hill about riding. im an engineer and he def speaks my language. trust me, he knows the why and im sure he would readily explain it at one of his school days. oh, there isnt a better way for our current motorcycle technology. u shouldn't worry about that .

what u brought up is probably the limitation of Ken's podcasts. he doesnt seem to have the time to explain the physical justification for some things and still have it be a "good" or useful podcast. plus not everyone cares to hear that.

if u really want a physical explanation for motorcycling, there are good books by a few respected engineers. Tony Foale, Andrew Trevitt, and Vittore Cossalter are prob the top 3. I suspect u might question some of your previous coaching after reading them.
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