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Old 06-29-2020, 09:26 AM   #46
horsepower
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Originally Posted by jumph4x View Post
Is this a normal duke, the SM or SMC. I might have insight for you here.

EDIT: Z3n beat me to it. But I might have a low mile flow-tested injector for you if you think it might help you.
Thanks D. You are one of those KTM riders I was hoping to hear from.
Also thank you to the two master mechanics who are offering help.
Iím going to test ride it today or tomorrow am to see if the problem is there after the gas drain , spark plug tune up etc.
stay tuned.

To update the mechanics Who are asking:. This is 100% not a mapping problem and it cannot be Dyno tuned out.
The bike Obviously sat for a long time Prior to my purchase.
The problem is that It stalls out
as you are coming to a halt or making a Very slow speed turn. It usually restarts immediately but sometimes wonít. Runs well at mid to high and .
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:14 AM   #47
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When I changed the exhaust on my KTM Superduke to a set of MIVV slip-on's I desperately needed to install my Power Commander. Once that was done it still ran a bit "off".

It wasn't until I installed a set of O≤ sensor blocks that the bike started to run excellent. I'm hoping it may be something as simple as that.

I proceeded to ride that thing for years and from SF across Canada. No issues. With any kind of fuel from any State.

Good luck!
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Old 07-01-2020, 06:41 PM   #48
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UPDATE!!!!!

Sadly , not a good one.
Went to shop after they changed plugs , drained tank , changed oil and checked filters etc.
Decided while the tank was off to remove the PC5 as many have suggested. It was noted it does have a k&N Filter and still has the Leo Vince exhaust. ( still didn’t check if the little round three- holeD washer is installed on the pipe exhaust as someone posted earlier as a suggestion ).
The mechanic said it tested fine outside of the shop ( it always does )
Bikewanker decided to come test ride it after speaking with some BARF gurus about the next step based on how it ran today.
It stalled out of the gate at the shop but made it to the Circle K for fill up 5 miles away. Then it stalled at a red light. The stalling was no longer coming to a stop as before , but now when coming from start to OTT. Wtf. After full up it made the 5 straight miles home without issue going through Tests of hard braking , slow downs , clutch ins and hard accelerations without any issue.
But 3 stalls “ off the line “.... not a vast improvement To the previous coming to a stop stalling.

Once home , Bikewanker took out a reset module located on the right side of the bike. It offered some “reset“ selections1) bad gas 2) 3) 4) Power 5) standard etc etc.
He chose #4 Power
It sounded the most powerful haha.
Off we went to Lake Berryessa. No problems and a smoother throttle for the 12 miles Up to the lake with the new gas We jet skied for an hour ( not on the bikes ), Then 3 miles back down the road it died Going 55.
Completely died and just a bulb bulb bulb on every restart attempt.
I cried electrical And just plain cried for no reason. Bikewanker believes that the fuel line is pinched off somewhere. I disagreed as it made it 28 miles from the shop without anything happening.

POS!!!!! No more PC 5 and full tune up and now it won’t start at all.

What’s the next step? I can’t believe it’s valves at this point and research says it has to do with “re-commanding “ ( which apparently is a reset not a mapping thing ) of the Two ECUs to do the correct job. This is also suggested on Motomania which is a full ECU re- command reset which apparently must be done only by KTM as they have the necessary tools needed to re direct the bikes commands. ???
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Last edited by horsepower; 07-01-2020 at 07:02 PM..
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Old 07-01-2020, 06:53 PM   #49
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It also seems to be showing a code on the display
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:03 PM   #50
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I'm betting fuel pump just finally gave up the ghost. I don't know why 690s eat fuel pumps, but they do. Gas smell when it was turning over? If no, definitely the fuel pump is the place to start looking.
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:03 PM   #51
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http://www.monomaniacs.nl/tnt/KTM-69...hrottle-issues
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
I'm betting fuel pump just finally gave up the ghost. I don't know why 690s eat fuel pumps, but they do. Gas smell when it was turning over? If no, definitely the fuel pump is the place to start looking.
Ok. Iíll have them check that tomorrow. If they are that hungry, it fits the MO.
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:19 PM   #53
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Also, it's gonna run like _shit_ with a Leo Vince and a filter on it without a dyno tune. These motors don't like anything but OEM or a careful tuner who understands not just A/F ratios but also timing. They're giant singles, tuned for massive HP relative to displacement, after a lot of fucking around we discovered that basically a modified bike gets terrible gas mileage and will also get stomped by a stock bike. If you open up the exhaust and intake without doing a cam and also increasing the rev limiter and changing the timing, the bikes lose basically all of their low end and midrange in exchange for a handful of ponies up top that most folks don't really use. If you do all the mods then you can get more HP but then it's basically a two stroke. Keep 'em stock. Noted exception is the carb'd Dukes, but you're not dealing with one of those. If you do wanna get it dyno tuned, they need to run pretty rich or they'll get hot as hell, which isn't great for the motors which already run pretty hot.

You can use a PC5 to clean up the throttle response by making it rich as hell right off idle, but the right solution is actually to install a G2 Throttle Tamer. The bikes feel like they're super jerky right when you roll on the gas, but the root of that is that the cam on the throttle body is oval, so it engages a lot on the first couple of degrees of throttle rotation. Great fun if you're riding on the track, less fun if you're just cruising around on the street. A G2 Throttle Tamer is oval but in the opposite style (makes initial throttle opening move the throttle cable less), so it restores it to more what folks expect. Ironically, it running like shit usually makes folks feel like the bike is running better because you've got less power and less power means means when you accidentally give it 25% throttle instead of the 10% you intended, it doesn't jerk forward as violently. After a bunch of miles on the 690s I adjusted to it, but that initial throttle engagement is definitely obnoxious.

So many people bought these and left it on the bad gas map and were shocked that it was anemic. KTMs come straight off the Dakar scene and they don't tend to change the shit that doesn't make a goddamn bit of sense on the street (why the hell does a 690 Duke have a "fuel pumped out of a rusty barrel" mode? Who's touring the desert on one? ).

Last edited by Z3n; 07-01-2020 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:33 PM   #54
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This bike is just for street for me. Keeping to my 600rrs for track.
I Am a HUGE fan of stock for all of the above reasons and would absolutely put a stock pipe and filter back on this were any available; They are impossible to find.

I asked not once but twice On this thread if taking off the PC5 - Knowing it had the Leo Vince and K&N- would make it worse . I was told both times it would only make it better and wouldn’t have any consequences. But I was always taught that it should be all stock or all mods and no mix thereof would work well.

It’s already been mapped and Dyno tuned. Are you saying it had to be done again ? Would it work this time ? Is this different from the Motomania thread suggestions. Ie is an ECU efi and throttle recommand different from a remap ?? Or does the remap reset the Two ECUs?
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:49 PM   #55
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-690-DUK...0/283212149836

$260 shipped but would do the job.

Here's the airbox:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Airbox-Box-...r/133320727794

Here's why I was a little side eye at the dyno tuner saying it was "good" with it mapped as is. Gonna go into a bit of depth here to try to communicate the detail - apologies if this is already stuff you know.

The two ECUs work together as a unit and you can pretty much treat them as one unit. I don't quite recall which one controls what for that gen of 690, but the throttle calibration and idle reset are basically things that should be done with an oil change just as a default to try and keep the bike tip top. Again, designed for race use, not really changed much from there before it was sold to consumers. These, along with the O2 sensors, perform fine tune adjustments that work within the parameters of what the ECU can do while still passing emissions. They can only really change fueling a little. Most bikes are tuned lean right up to the very edge of not running to pass emissions, which is why sometimes those resets can nudge the mixture just rich enough to stop lean stalls or flame outs.

The PC5 is a piggyback unit that intercepts the commands the ECU sends to the fuel injection (and spark, if they support timing), and changes them beyond the parameters the ECU would allow. If it doesn't have an autotune unit on it, it can't do live changes, and most don't adjust for different air temperatures. They also require you to disable the factory O2 sensors, or eventually the ECU will "learn" its way back to the emissions compliant mapping. However - the piggyback unit doesn't have any way of knowing what is actually happening with the motor. It just knows "if you're at x RPM with Y throttle, add or take away this much fuel". They all start with a zero map (no changes from what the ECU does normally), and then you either download a map and hope it works, or you ship it off to a dyno tuner to have the controlled conditions where you can fine tune each RPM and throttle opening and figure out if it needs to be richer or leaner.

Unfortunately - if some part was on its way out, or the bike is running poorly, you don't know if the A/F ratio is off because the factory ECU map isn't quite ideal or if it's because the part happens to be failing at that moment. In an ideal world, you should have a full tune up and valve check done, get the spark plugs changed, the air filter changed, oil, everything, then do the ECU resets, throttle calibration, and then you put it on the dyno and tune it. Then you know that the ECU base map is determining as much of the fueling as possible, and you should be confident that your changes in the piggyback unit will fine tune the base map, and not be trying to address some other problem. As spark plugs wear and the air filter clogs and the valves go out of spec, it'll start to run a little worse but it shouldn't be noticeably so, and then when you check the valves and do the plugs and filters it'll go back into being roughly ideal.

But given that the bike wasn't running properly and the dyno tuner reported it couldn't hold an A/F ratio, that should have been an immediate "stop the dyno tune, figure out the root cause of the A/F ratio bouncing", because the whole point of the piggyback unit is to let you get a specific A/F ratio. You can bandaid a, say, failing fuel pump by turning up the amount that the piggyback unit says it should inject (fuel pump puts out 20% less fuel than expected, piggyback unit says "inject 20% more fuel", and now it runs in the ballpark of okay) but as your fuel pump continues to fail, it will just go lean again. Given that fuel pumps don't usually fail all at once, but tend to perform worse when hot, or under certain conditions, there's no way to know if the dyno tune was when the fuel pump was operating properly or not. From what they said, it wasn't, so it would need to get re-done regardless. Assuming it originally had a map on it before they started tuning it, hopefully that map was kept and was done from an ideal state, so as long as the bike gets fixed, that map would be fine.

The other thing that makes me sigh about all of this is that you can actually just modify the maps in the stock ECU with the right cable and software. The earlier KTM ECUs weren't locked down super hard and you can just tune the ECUs themselves without worrying about all the complexity of a piggyback unit and the additional wiring. TuneECU is free! (but most dyno tuners don't know how to use it...) Also, if they tune it to the A/F ratios that a 600 would run, you're gonna end up with a grumpy, hot bike. These bikes like to run real rich.

Last edited by Z3n; 07-01-2020 at 08:59 PM..
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:21 PM   #56
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Thanks for the links, Conan.
I bought the stock pipe and air box , will install and remap , and get a new fuel pump.
$5500 into the bike , we are stuck with each other now.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:43 PM   #57
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Someday I'm gonna build a 690 as an ultralight trackbike, but I gotta get the 1190 Super Enduro outta the garage first and then the Ducati 999 air cooled flat tracker build done...good thing quarantine is giving me all kinds of free time.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:50 PM   #58
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I have no idea if this will help, but the Honda motorcycle I bought (2015 cb300f) would stall out for no reason (purchased brand new). Honda put out a recall for the starter relay switch (apparently a sealant was incorrectly applied and would cause a loss of power to the electrical system). I had the starter relay switch replaced and it fixed the problem (it no longer stalled out / lost power, and I didn't have any problems starting the bike afterwards).

Good luck with your troubleshooting, and hoping you are able to get out riding on it soon!
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:25 PM   #59
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This guy had a bad display. Thread says it was an issue with 690s. It could very well be an intermittent electrical issue.

https://advrider.com/f/threads/assis...r-code.506172/
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:40 PM   #60
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This guy had a bad display. Thread says it was an issue with 690s. It could very well be an intermittent electrical issue.

https://advrider.com/f/threads/assis...r-code.506172/
True but this guy had EXACTLY to the letter my bike’s problem.
https://www.ktmforums.com/threads/on...g-issues.3400/
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