BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Moto > The Garage


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2020, 09:40 PM   #1
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
Do you believe in miracles?

Well I do...and here is the story.
Sometime ago in April, I picked up 2 Kawas ninja 250 (I called them the sisters and gave them names) to do a quarantine project. Until then I've done some basic maintenance in my bikes but nothing "too deep" or even a resurrection

First thing I did was to see which one was "running". Well, both engines ran on the same clean set of carburetors so I decided to keep one (Citiela) and sell the other after I made it run (Citi Maria). Citi Maria sold with no fairings but I put the only set of handlebars I had so I did not have handle bars for Citiela.

I started to dissasemble Citiela and rebuild parts. Rear suspension, rear brakes, front suspension, brakes, electical issues, carbs...and the list went on. I've never clean sooo much

BTW. I love the dollar store degreaser. That is a savior one.

Recently I've got a left handlebar and I am waiting for the right side (from a member of BARF!) so I can't ride it just yet. This week, I finally rebuild the carbs and give it a try. It started on the first try. Kept it for while on choke and turn it off. No smoke...nothing unusual really.

My anxiety started to grow more and more. It has brakes and suspension. So I wanted to put the handlebars and ride it!!! But the right side has not come just yet.

Sooo today, after I came from work...I thought: I wanna do something more. I know I will eventually have to check the valve clearance cuz I did the other and it was really needing it....so I took my time this time. Radiator off, valve cover off...started to "drain" some pools of oil with a syringe and there is the miracle: There was a rocker arm swimming in the oil!!!

I was first a bit frustrated but then it happens: I saw the glass half full. I am glad I did not have the chance to run the bike and I am totally glad that it did not cause a big damage when It ran for a few minutes on idle. I am almost sure the valve is ok because the spring is there and it is supposed to keep it close, right?

Now...I have a big challenge and I am a bit anxious but at the end of the day I am confident that with patience and logic (and the manual and a lot of youtube videos and your advice ) I will be able to put the rocker arm back.

Advice is very welcome....I am already feeling some relief by telling you guys the story in my broken english (apologize in advance).

Thanks for reading!

Last edited by musiclucho; 07-17-2020 at 09:42 PM..
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 05:16 AM   #2
Maddevill
KNGKAW
 
Maddevill's Avatar
 
AMA #: 542337

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: ZX14,GS750E, KTM 450/540
Name: Steve
Wait a minute. Was this an EXTRA rocker arm or one of the ones that was supposed to be in there ?
Because if it was one of the needed ones I didn't see how it's possible it ran good....at all. It would run on one cylinder. The reason I ask is I once found a "spare" rocker pad inside a new KTM

Mad
__________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're built upside down.
Maddevill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 05:50 AM   #3
RickM
Veteran
 
RickM's Avatar
 
Contributor + 8%

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Modesto, CA
Motorcycles: Red Honda and a few others.
Name: Ricky
Have seen this multiple times on 88 to 07 ninja 250.
Never had one cause damage. One motor even had a valve collet come off and fortunately the remaining valve collet held the valve in place.

The engine actually ran better at low rpms with the rocker not in places. Higher rpms you’d feel much lower power
__________________
Do Supermoto. Off the hook fun!

+ 1 st gen SV650 parts: http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums...d.php?t=460115
+ Ninja 650 parts: http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums...d.php?t=456140
RickM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 01:21 PM   #4
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddevill View Post
Wait a minute. Was this an EXTRA rocker arm or one of the ones that was supposed to be in there ?
Because if it was one of the needed ones I didn't see how it's possible it ran good....at all. It would run on one cylinder. The reason I ask is I once found a "spare" rocker pad inside a new KTM

Mad
No, it was not a spare. It was one of the left side intake rocker arms. When I bought it, she was not running and it was part dissasembled. This week, it "ran" again on idle and about 5-6k rpms. I have read that technically, they will run on less valves (she has 8 so 4 per cylinder). It is not a surprise since I found that her sister was running with 2 or 3 exhaust valves open always (there was no clearance or less than 0.3mm).
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 01:24 PM   #5
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickM View Post
Have seen this multiple times on 88 to 07 ninja 250.
Never had one cause damage. One motor even had a valve collet come off and fortunately the remaining valve collet held the valve in place.

The engine actually ran better at low rpms with the rocker not in places. Higher rpms you’d feel much lower power
Well...maybe it was running on 7 valves only. But I am still glad that it did not made it´s way toward the cam chain. I read in the ninja forum of cases when the rocker arms had broke and went everywhere down the cam chain gallery. DISASTER!
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 02:37 PM   #6
ST Guy
Veteran
 
ST Guy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Bay
Motorcycles: Honda ST1100 ABS (tweaked here and there)
Name:
How the heck does a rocker arm just come off?
__________________
It's not the answer that enlightens, but the question. - Eugene Ionesco

Let us not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless when facing them. - Rabindranath Tagore

A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it. - Rabindranath Tagore
ST Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 01:08 AM   #7
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Guy View Post
How the heck does a rocker arm just come off?
I dunno but it came out in one piece. On further inspection, I saw a little bite in the aluminum case. #theescaperoute 😂
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 01:40 AM   #8
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
Update to this story...
So today I broke my back trying to get this fixed. This is my very first time removing the camshaft and messing with the timing....a bit challenging but not rocket science.

Well, I managed to remove the intake cam shaft and put the rocker arm back. Torque everything and proceeded with valve clearance. By then, my confidence was so high that I forgot to cover the cam chain tunnel and spark plugs holes ... so here we go...
Two errors in a row (You can guess my second mistake) made me lose my 0.13mm filler gauge inside the cam chain tunnel. Boy, I lost my mind looking for that sucker! To made my story short, I finally got it after a lot or cursing and further disassembling including oil drain...
All right, back in track. With everything in place (once again)...went to adjust the clearance for the former swimmer (the rocket arm) and no matter what, there isn’t clearance. Lost my mind again...
So here I was again, taking stuff apart (this time without even marking things up). I checked again the rocker arm and this time against a working one. They look identical and it seems to work well. Thinking and thinking...aha! I found the culprit: the valve spring is stuck. All that I can see is one of the two keepers in place. The other seemed to be stuck. I tried hitting it with a socket and a hammer but nothing happened. By this time my mind and body were really tired so I decided to put things back and leave that valve closed (without the rocker arm of course).

Put the rest back...and gave it a try. It runs...idles just above 1k rpm. I will leave it like that for a while, teach my wife how to ride and keep it as a future project for a “head removal class” (I am talking about my head ��).

Any advice about how to get the valve unfreeze?

Once again... thanks for reading my story and apologize for my broken english .

Last edited by musiclucho; 07-19-2020 at 01:45 AM..
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 01:52 PM   #9
Busy Little Shop
Man behaving bikely...
 
Busy Little Shop's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento Ca.
Motorcycles: Honda RC45 RC30
Name: Larry L
Miracles do happen but one has to work just as hard for them as non miracles...
__________________
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
https://www.youtube.com/user/BusyLittleShop/feed
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/Bu...?sort=3&page=1
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/Bu...?sort=3&page=1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55532474@N00/?saved=1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10503451@N07/
Busy Little Shop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2020, 10:03 AM   #10
Sportbiker
Slow
 
Sportbiker's Avatar
 
Founding Member
Contributor + + + + + + + + + + + + + 2%

Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bay Area
Motorcycles: Dirt, Street
Name:
Fascinating turn of events.. thanks for sharing.
Sportbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2020, 07:34 PM   #11
musiclucho
Rookie
 
musiclucho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Boulder Creek
Motorcycles: Yamaha FZ07, Kawasaki Ninja EX250
Name: LG
How to fix a closed intake valve.

After I put everything back together, the bike ran with 7 valves...idle and mid revs. The part still hasn't come yet....so I wanted so bad to try it and made an OEM redneck handle from a redwood branch fallen on my yard. Check the pic...of course I knew this was just to move the bike around but I still tried going down and up hill as far as our street goes (just one large block in lenght but very steep)...it went well. A bit of hanging but nothing too bad.

Today Friday the parts came in. Big THANKS to DANNO who sent me the parts. Inmediately, I switch the parts and went for a more serious test. As expected, the bike bogs past 50 or 60mph but runs ok. I want this bike to teach my wife so that will be ok but I know that in the future I want to fix the valve problem.

Now, let me tell you the problem. I don't think the valve itself is stuck but the spring because one of the keepers is jammed there. I would not want to take out the engine further down but if is a must, I will do it.

I need some advice if some of you had experienced this issue. What would be the best approach to put back in service that valve?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3617.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	101.4 KB
ID:	535648  
musiclucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2020, 07:55 PM   #12
RickM
Veteran
 
RickM's Avatar
 
Contributor + 8%

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Modesto, CA
Motorcycles: Red Honda and a few others.
Name: Ricky
I removed the head and used a valve spring compressor to install the keepers properly. Will need a new head gasket also to reinstall. I was able to get away without changing the base gasket. If they base moves while taking the head out , I’d replace the base gasket too.
__________________
Do Supermoto. Off the hook fun!

+ 1 st gen SV650 parts: http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums...d.php?t=460115
+ Ninja 650 parts: http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums...d.php?t=456140
RickM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2020, 06:21 AM   #13
Maddevill
KNGKAW
 
Maddevill's Avatar
 
AMA #: 542337

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: ZX14,GS750E, KTM 450/540
Name: Steve
A tree branch for a handlebar, riding around with a stuck valve....you're my kind of guy.

Mad
__________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're built upside down.
Maddevill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2020, 11:36 AM   #14
Rob
House Cat
 
Rob's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sout Ess Jay
Motorcycles: Too many and yet... Not enough.
Name: I forget
Quote:
Originally Posted by musiclucho View Post
After I put everything back together, the bike ran with 7 valves...idle and mid revs. The part still hasn't come yet....so I wanted so bad to try it and made an OEM redneck handle from a redwood branch fallen on my yard. Check the pic...of course I knew this was just to move the bike around but I still tried going down and up hill as far as our street goes (just one large block in lenght but very steep)...it went well. A bit of hanging but nothing too bad.

Today Friday the parts came in. Big THANKS to DANNO who sent me the parts. Inmediately, I switch the parts and went for a more serious test. As expected, the bike bogs past 50 or 60mph but runs ok. I want this bike to teach my wife so that will be ok but I know that in the future I want to fix the valve problem.

Now, let me tell you the problem. I don't think the valve itself is stuck but the spring because one of the keepers is jammed there. I would not want to take out the engine further down but if is a must, I will do it.

I need some advice if some of you had experienced this issue. What would be the best approach to put back in service that valve?
Would it be too much to assume that the WD-40 can is your makeshift gas tank? Wassat?
__________________
wait for it... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Rob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2020, 09:34 AM   #15
DannoXYZ
Veteran
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Barf Roadside Angel

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: East Bay
Motorcycles: CB125T, EX250, Ninja250R race bike, CBR250R(MC19), CBR250RR(MC22), VF500F, CBR600RR
Name: Danno
@musiclucho
Wow, I didn’t realise this is what you meant by “stuck valve”! Good thing hitting it with hammer didn’t dislodge valve-keepers, then you’d have to pull head. Smacking with hammer is only used to remove keepers. Re-install requires more precision tools. I just finished replacing all valve stem seals on my dad’s Lexus without removing head and am gonna do it on my EX250 next. I’ll outline how to fix your stuck valve below.

First, you’ve got rocker that’s fallen off valve. This is caused by previous gorilla mechanics not using torque wrench to tighten adjuster locknut. They end up overtightening it!


Underneath, there’s two tabs/ledges that keep it centred over valve-stem.


What overtightening locknut does is spins rocker sideways hard enough to break off one of these tabs.


Then when cams pushes on rocker, eventually due to broken tab, rocker works its way loose. This is just start of Armageddon as rocker pushes onto valve-retainer and pushes on that instead of valve-stem. This is why you have partially dislodged keeper. In some lucky cases it manages to dislodge keepers, and valve drops and is smashed by piston and you have only one broken valve and piston.

In other instances, rocker eventually works its way out completely. Inevitably, it falls into cam-chain and jam it. Breaking tensioner mount off block, which jams tensioner into chain and shears teeth off cam sprocket. Which puts cam out-of-phase with crank causing pistons to hit valves. Final closing act bends all valves, punches holes in both pistons and snaps remaining rockers in half!!! So yes! I believe in miracles!!!

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 09-06-2020 at 10:01 AM..
DannoXYZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.