Hwy 84 and Old La Honda Road

[Enchanter]

I guess I'm just on his case because he he just seemed to want to dump it all at the feet of the OP and threw out the very unhelpful "you were going to fast" instead of actually helping.

Would it have been more accurate had he said "you were going too fast for your skill" ?

How she reacted once she saw the cyclist is the REAL issue, not her speed.

Dave

Had the OP's speed been lower, how would that have affected her ability to react to the bicyclist? Would it given her more or less time (& distance)? Is it not the interaction of skill and speed that plays a large part in crashes?

Is it reasonable assume that riding at the speed limit is ok? Maybe. Is it possible that the legal speed limit is above some riders abilities? Yes. We need to not only ride within the limits of the environment and the limits of our motorcycle, but we also need to ride within our limits. It has been my experience/observation, that the last limit is the most difficult to ride within.

 

[DaveT319]

Would it have been more accurate had he said "you were going too fast for your skill" ?

Perhaps, but even skilled riders can lock up when presented with a situation that is unexpected.

Had the OP's speed been lower, how would that have affected her ability to react to the bicyclist? Would it given her more or less time (& distance)? Is it not the interaction of skill and speed a large contributor to crashes?

Is it reasonable assume that riding at the speed limit is ok? Maybe. Is it possible that the legal speed limit is above some riders abilities? Yes. We need to not only ride within the limits of the environment and the limits of our motorcycle, but we also need to ride within our limits. It has been my experience/observation, that the last limit is the most difficult to ride within.

I'll agree with that. But I think the more pertinent suggestions are the ones that help her with reacting better when the situation presents itself. Simply saying "slow down" doesn't help much, because there are times when you can't hardly be going slow enough to avoid an accident. I think it's better to counsel her on how to trust her instincts and improve her reactions than to just say "slow down".

Dave

 

[Enchanter]

We are arguing semantics at this point. It is obvious that you feel that there are times that "accidents" cannot be avoided. I generally disagree with that, but either way, that thought process doesn't apply to this situation. In this instance, it is unrealistic to assume that you won't see or pass a bicyclist on 9, 35, or 84. It is also unrealistic to assume that there is no added risk at intersections. Another rider that frequently rides in the same area has already stated the he slows down in that area. Speed was a component of this. It isn't the only component, but it was up there towards the top. Telling her to slow down was accurate. I don't think it was meant to be the single/only thing she should do, or have done. But it would have helped.

I would like to note that when I refer to skill, that I am also referring to the riders judgment. Judgment is a skill that is often overlooked when discussing motorcycle operation. As far as improving reactions, the best way to do so is by slowing down. Added time and space to react will greatly improve the chances of surviving the incident. At lower speeds there also less of a panic reaction, also improving the chances of a more correct reaction.

 

[DaveT319]

Right, the odds of seeing a bike are pretty high. But should you really expect to see one in your lane, especially when you are the last rider in a small group? So could she have gone slower? Absolutely. But how slow is slow enough? Just how slow does one need to go to eliminate all risk, you that you can see ANY unexpected obstacle ahead?

I still contend that the REAL issue here was the few moments that she hesitated. If she had reacted like her instincts told her to, she would have easily swerved around the cyclist. TO ME, the speed doesn't seem to be the issue as much as the lack of action once recognizing the hazard.

But, I guess we are at odds on this and outnumbered, so I'll just drop it.

Dave

 

[tzrider]

Telling her to slow down was accurate. I don't think it was meant to be the single/only thing she should do, or have done. But it would have helped.

It would have helped, and yet in this case, I'm wondering how helpful it is to discuss it.

The location has some real peculiarities that you don't see in many places. If the rider knew about this, going slow is something we could reasonably suggest. If she's totally unfamiliar with the road, she may have been setting her speed as she would for any normal corner.

Granted, you could possibly find something stopped in your lane around any corner. It's something we all need to realize and take into account. Still, the probability of this happening in typical corners is very low. It's far higher in this particular turn because there is an intersection right there.

Either way, I'd still like to know whether the OP thinks that, having entered the turn at the speed she did, with her current level of physical skill, she had realistic options to avoid hitting the bike.

 

[Yakoo752]

I'm a chick, by the way, not that it matters. I did think that I had the right-of-way as he had the stop sign. But I wound up filing a claim and as I expected, they found me 100% at fault. Boo!!! I think mostly it is a shitty intersection and needs some warning signs. Another biker at Alice's said he saw a similar accident, in which he gave the bicyclist CPR, but he did not survive. So in lots of ways we were both lucky. But I KNOW that many other motorcyclists, will speed around this corner.

I have read this thread and I seem to keep hearing the same thing in the beginning... right of way, right of way, and moar cowbell... I think Aluisious sig line says it best

Right of way: either you can be right or you can be alive. What's more important?

 

[Underdog]

... So could she have gone slower? Absolutely. But how slow is slow enough? Just how slow does one need to go to eliminate all risk, you that you can see ANY unexpected obstacle ahead?

Slow enough to NOT lock up?

Dave, you know very well it's real easy going fast on that road. You zoom past that "intersection upfront" sign and at least need to get ready for some quick maneuvers... that's true for every intersection. I don't necessarily slow down, I just get ready for !@#$ to happen..

 

[Abunai]

I think in this case, a louder exhaust would help. As a photographer on redwood, I often hear loud bikes coming and I was able to prepare for the right moment when the rider comes around the corner. I usually get about 4-8 seconds to adjust prepare. Now if I was the cyclist, maybe I could use this 10-20 seconds to give that "right of way" like remained stopped for a little longer before pulling out or position myself out of the way of oncoming traffic. For motorcycle with stock cans, I sometime miss my shot because I didn't get the 10-20 second notice like i normally do with motorcycles that runs with a louder exhaust.

 

[Enchanter]

I think in this case, a louder exhaust would help.

You are a motorcyclist, specifically looking for motorcycles, so the sound actually has a meaning to you. Non-motorcyclists are oblivious. In my job I speak to many non-motorcyclists every month (about 70-100). Sound is a common subject brought up by them. The overwhelming reaction these people share is one of panic. They cannot tell where the motorcycle is or how fast it is going. They describe a level of panic that causes them to essentially freeze up and look forward. When it comes to bicyclists, many are unable to hear anything due to the wind noise and wearing mp3 players.

The greater picture is that loud exhaust is a major reason that motorcyclists get negative attention from the communities we ride in as well as the Govt. The American Motorcyclist Association is spending big $ on this, and it isn't the action most motorcyclist think. It is to make motorcycles quieter.

 

[Enchanter]

Dave-

You seem to be focused on the word speed. I really don't care what the actual speed was.

What advice can you give her that would help should she find herself in this situation again this weekend? Are you going to limit your advice to "don't freeze up", or just "don't target fixate"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say "You should slow a little when approaching intersections, be prepared to make an evasive maneuver, look farther ahead and do not stare at the object you want to avoid"? I do not know how to say this any clearer: speed was a component of this crash, and as such it should be addressed. I did not say it was the only component.

 

[Desmodromic]

Back to topic...


Glad OP is ok and thank you for sharing the experience learned. I shall take this knowledge with me and try to be a better rider. Tim and Stephen's suggestion carries some weight.

 

[DaveT319]

Dave-

You seem to be focused on the word speed. I really don't care what the actual speed was.

What advice can you give her that would help should she find herself in this situation again this weekend? Are you going to limit your advice to "don't freeze up", or just "don't target fixate"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say "You should slow a little when approaching intersections, be prepared to make an evasive maneuver, look farther ahead and do not stare at the object you want to avoid"? I do not know how to say this any clearer: speed was a component of this crash, and as such it should be addressed. I did not say it was the only component.

But isn't the point of this area to help the rider IMPROVE their skills, not just stay level or even go backwards? Saying the speed is an issue would ring true to me if she was squidding it up, taking the curve at 80 or something. But she wasn't. The REAL issues are what happened once the obstruction appeared. So then some of the ones you listed are good: be prepared to make an evasive maneuver, look farther ahead and do not stare at the object you want to avoid. But for the suggestion of "You should slow a little when approaching intersections", how many of us do that when we have the right-of-way. And I'm not talking about this specific intersection, but intersections in general. But my main issue was that Aluisious simply said "you were going too fast", and that doesn't really help the rider improve her skills.

Dave

 

[Enchanter]

But isn't the point of this area to help the rider IMPROVE their skills, not just stay level or even go backwards? Saying the speed is an issue would ring true to me if she was squidding it up, taking the curve at 80 or something. But she wasn't.

Is it possible to be riding at a speed above your skill level, but below the speed limit?

How do you define 'skills'. If I interpret you correctly, you define skills as the inputs the rider makes to the motorcycle and it's controls. I also consider judgment to be a skill.

The REAL issues are what happened once the obstruction appeared. So then some of the ones you listed are good: be prepared to make an evasive maneuver, look farther ahead and do not stare at the object you want to avoid. But for the suggestion of "You should slow a little when approaching intersections", how many of us do that when we have the right-of-way. And I'm not talking about this specific intersection, but intersections in general.

I do. Every single time. I slightly adjust my speed downwards as I approach areas of high risk. It might only be 1-2mph, sometimes its 10 or more.

But my main issue was that Aluisious simply said "you were going too fast", and that doesn't really help the rider improve her skills.

And your suggestion is also only focusing one aspect of this situation. Both are valid, both are incomplete. Better judgment will lower the number of times you need better skill(s).

 

[DaveT319]

Is it possible to be riding at a speed above your skill level, but below the speed limit?

So to you, the simple fact that she had the accident proves that she was riding at a speed above her skill level? So then, help her develop the skills to ride at that level, not simply tell her to slow down.

How do you define 'skills'. If I interpret you correctly, you define skills as the inputs the rider makes to the motorcycle and it's controls. I also consider judgment to be a skill.

You believe she used poor judgment? I think the poor judgment was on the part of the cyclist that pulled out in front of her.

I guess we just have differing opinions. I think the more helpful thing is to analyze how a rider can keep from crashing once a threat has presented itself; you and Aluisious seem to want to focus on avoiding ALL situations that could lead to a crash, and that simply isn't possible. You can minimize the risks, but you can't eliminate them. The only way you can is to not get on the bike in the first place.

Dave

 

[Enchanter]

So to you, the simple fact that she had the accident proves that she was riding at a speed above her skill level? So then, help her develop the skills to ride at that level, not simply tell her to slow down.

Please find the part where I told her that the only option was to slow down. Oh, right, you cannot. Did you miss the parts where I said that speed was a component? You are trying so hard to prove your point that you are missing darn near all of my words in this thread. You keep pushing the same argument that you had in the beginning. You fail to address the other points that have been brought up since your first attempt at trying to prove your point. Simply repeating your opinion doesn't strengthen your position.

You believe she used poor judgment? I think the poor judgment was on the part of the cyclist that pulled out in front of her.

Wait, is the bicyclist posting here and I missed it? What leads you to belive that I ever questioned the fact that the bicyclist made a poor choice?

I guess we just have differing opinions. I think the more helpful thing is to analyze how a rider can keep from crashing once a threat has presented itself; you and Aluisious seem to want to focus on avoiding ALL situations that could lead to a crash, and that simply isn't possible. You can minimize the risks, but you can't eliminate them. The only way you can is to not get on the bike in the first place.

First off, you seem to have a difficult time reading my comments, because you keep putting words into my mouth. Please take the time to re-read my posts and find the point where I said that it was possible to avoid all situations that lead to a crash? Let me help you save some time: I never said that. If you are unable to gasp the concept that you can reduce or eliminate risk prior to needing the physical skills related to controlling a motorcycle, then I truly feel sorry for you and your loved ones. Riding in that manner indicates that you are an crash waiting to happen.

You only want to focus on the actions that should be taken after "the threat has presented itself". I on the other hand want to address the situation before AND after the "the threat has presented itself". Get it? Before AND after. All of those skills are weak. See? I want to address ALL factors. You only want to address SOME of the factors. Seems like a partial solution at best. That is the reason that I have been interacting with you in this thread, you present a partial solution and try to say it is the "best". You present an option that is reactionary and somehow feel that it will solve this situation. Have you ever heard that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? Or does that not apply to motorcycling? Ignoring the things that led up to the event is ignorant.

 

[tzrider]

I do. Every single time. I slightly adjust my speed downwards as I approach areas of high risk. It might only be 1-2mph, sometimes its 10 or more.

This may be the crux of the disagreement you and Dave are in. Slowing down in areas of risk is a reasonable thing to do.

It is not clear whether the OP realized she was riding into an area of higher risk. She may not have known about the intersection; the corner may have looked like any other corner to her. Only she can answer that.

If she is to follow any advice to slow down, she needs to have some idea of where to slow down. My bet is she already knows this to some degree and the failure was in recognizing the hazard.

Continued arguing isn't going to encourage more participation from her and that's what it's going to take for anything useful to emerge, IHO.

ms_boo, if you're still out there, did you know there was an intersection around the corner as you approached the turn entry?

 

[DaveT319]

All of those skills are weak. See? I want to address ALL factors. You only want to address SOME of the factors. Seems like a partial solution at best.

And Aluisious's statement of "You were going too fast" isn't a partial solution? That's why I brought up the other issues. You think I'm focusing on the wrong part, and I think you are as well. So, since this is pointless, I'll bow out and leave it to the apparent experts.

Dave

 

[Enchanter]

And Aluisious's statement of "You were going too fast" isn't a partial solution? That's why I brought up the other issues

Yes, Aluisious's statement was a partial solution....just like yours.

You think I'm focusing on the wrong part, and I think you are as well.

How were you able to come to that conclusion?

I on the other hand want to address the situation before AND after the "the threat has presented itself". Get it? Before AND after. All of those skills are weak. See? I want to address ALL factors.

And your suggestion is also only focusing one aspect of this situation. Both are valid, both are incomplete.

I do not know how to say this any clearer: speed was a component of this crash, and as such it should be addressed. I did not say it was the only component.

See Dave, we agree that better skills would help after seeing the hazard. Where we disagree is that I think something could have been done prior to the hazard as well. Win/win with my theory, win/lose with yours.

 

[Aluisious]

This may be the crux of the disagreement you and Dave are in. Slowing down in areas of risk is a reasonable thing to do.

It is not clear whether the OP realized she was riding into an area of higher risk. She may not have known about the intersection; the corner may have looked like any other corner to her. Only she can answer that.

If she is to follow any advice to slow down, she needs to have some idea of where to slow down. My bet is she already knows this to some degree and the failure was in recognizing the hazard.

Continued arguing isn't going to encourage more participation from her and that's what it's going to take for anything useful to emerge, IHO.

ms_boo, if you're still out there, did you know there was an intersection around the corner as you approached the turn entry?

My initial suggestion is still the same. If you're unfamiliar with a road you can't just rail corners as if each one was like the last, you have to slow down for each one assuming that there could be something like...an intersection with a bicyclist in it.

I don't believe that there was anything here that would not have been solved by going slower. Slower = more reaction time = less panic = safely navigated obstacle. Dave has a strange fixation on justifying high speed.

 

[tzrider]

I don't believe that there was anything here that would not have been solved by going slower. Slower = more reaction time = less panic = safely navigated obstacle. Dave has a strange fixation on justifying high speed.

The OP maintains she wasn't going very fast. Why do you guys keep assuming she was?

There's not much analysis going on here; it's a bunch of speculation and dick waving.