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No, I don't want more riding skills...

M

motomania2007

TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Joined
May 31, 2008
Location
Merced, CA
Moto(s)
BMW R1200R, FZ09, FZR400, CR250R
Name
George
I had an exchange on FB about more advanced rider training = more rider skills = more fun and more safety.

Someone posted "I don't want more skills because then I will ride faster and increase my risk... but I definitely will not be safer"

I can't follow his logic.

Just because you have more skills does not mean you must ride faster and take more risks.

He clearly does not understand what additional rider training actually means.

We had a couple of exchanges but I gave up trying to explain it to him as he was not understanding me.


This experience made me wonder if other riders had the same misunderstanding of advanced rider training.


Have you ever known someone with this misunderstanding?


The goal of additional rider training is more safety margin.

A side effect of more safety margin is that riding ALSO becomes even more fun!

In the rider training world there is a concept called risk/skills offset that says if you have a 4 out of 10 skill level and are choosing to ride at a 4 out of 10 risk level, then there is no risk/skills offset in your riding as you are required to use all of your skills to not crash based at the risk level you are choosing.

Having a good risk/skills offset provides safety margin.

Having a safety margin is very important so that when you encounter a slick spot in the road or bambi in a corner or the oncoming car in your lane, you still have skills and margin to avoid that new risk you were not planning for, at your current speed, lean angle, etc.

The goal of rider training is to teach students additional riding skills AND to be more aware of riding risks.

We often teach them about risks they may not already be aware of.

Ideally, the more trained rider has increased rider skills and the knowledge to choose to ride at a decrease level of risk when they go riding so they have an increased risk/skills offset and safety margin.

For example: if you add skills so that now you are a 7 out of 10 skill level and you choose to ride at a risk level of 3 out of 10, then you have a risk/skills offset and safety margin of 4 levels of risk.

However, if you have a 7 out of 10 skill level and you choose to ride at a 7 out of 10 risk level, you still have no risk/skills offset or safety margin.
 
I assume mental skills are part of this and those count a bunch.

In that regard....How does the advanced course address those??

However I completely agree really. Greater skill does not mean greater risk. I think most will tend to ride a bit faster but that is offset by better skill. The most common crash is us running off the road and skill minimizes that.

So yeah. get more training!!
 
budman said:
I assume mental skills are part of this and those count a bunch.

In that regard....How does the advanced course address those??

However I completely agree really. Greater skill does not mean greater risk. I think most will tend to ride a bit faster but that is offset by better skill. The most common crash is us running off the road and skill minimizes that.

So yeah. get more training!!
Click to expand...

There are lots of mental strategies that are taught. Here are a few:

1) Looking further ahead and how to use your eyes properly (turning your head to keep your eyes more centered and generally looking "big picture view" instead of at particular things...)

2) How and when to plan and execute a corner - break down the details of cornering so the rider has tools to adjust their cornering

3) Anticipate things that might be around the blind corner and plan for evading them

4) Impairments - alcohol and other drugs, illness, aging, stress, emotions, etc and how to deal with them.

There are lots more, these are just the ones that cause most solo motorcycle crashes
 
If you’re dealing with an adrenaline junky, they will ignore any input related to safety and will only latch onto the stuff that makes them able to go faster.

You can’t teach someone to care about safety. I’d say, for the individual you corresponded with, he’s probably right.
 
tzrider said:
If you’re dealing with an adrenaline junky, they will ignore any input related to safety and will only latch onto the stuff that makes them able to go faster.

You can’t teach someone to care about safety. I’d say, for the individual you corresponded with, he’s probably right.
Click to expand...

What I got from him is that he rides a beat up, poorly handling sportster that he knows is beat up and handles poorly BECAUSE this beat up POS keeps him riding slowly...

I attempted to point out to him that the beat up POS ALSO increases his risk but he could not fathom that at all.

I also got from him that "everyone on sportbikes is a speed junkie and has a deathwish and will be dead soon"

I do agree with you, there is no reaching him, that is why I gave up after reading his response to only a couple of questions.

I have just never encountered someone with that twisted of logic and misinformation, that verbally admitted it, and seemed proud of it.
 
Sounds like you were wasting your time talking to a fool?

I agree, it’s all what you make of the training
 
motomania2007 said:
I have just never encountered someone with that twisted of logic and misinformation, that verbally admitted it, and seemed proud of it.
Click to expand...

scout

beginner
 
I'm trying to get into his head...maybe he's thinking the more you know, the faster YOU THINK you can go. If you don't know so much, then you'll be more cautious?
So if a bus driver has less training he's a better driver? If a lathe operator doesn't know so much he won't lose a finger? That's stupid. Knowledge = safety.
 
I don't want to be smarter because then I'd have to think more.
I don't want more food because then I'd get hungrier.
People..... Sheesh !

Mad
 
Enchanter said:
scout

beginner
Click to expand...

I do recall scout the troll.

I looked at some of this guy's other posts and they were consistent in his self description and not all about being a troll.

It just got me wondering if there were other riders out there with that twisted thinking... It is so foreign to me I had never even considered that mode of thinking being the basis for not wanting to learn how to be a better rider and have more fun riding...
 
greenmonster said:
I'm trying to get into his head...maybe he's thinking the more you know, the faster YOU THINK you can go. If you don't know so much, then you'll be more cautious?
So if a bus driver has less training he's a better driver? If a lathe operator doesn't know so much he won't lose a finger? That's stupid. Knowledge = safety.
Click to expand...

It appears that he thinks or knows that he has no self control.

It reminds me of a thread here where someone told me that I would ride faster with an ABS equipped motorcycle. Similar line of thought.

One can definitely use the skills learned in our classes to increase speed. Some do, some use them to increase the safety margin.
 
Enchanter said:
It appears that he thinks or knows that he has no self control.

It reminds me of a thread here where someone told me that I would ride faster with an ABS equipped motorcycle. Similar line of thought.

One can definitely use the skills learned in our classes to increase speed. Some do, some use them to increase the safety margin.
Click to expand...

26 or 27 years ago, when I was a student at the Superbike School, the topic of whether the school was a safety school came up. Keith answered that he didn't consider the school a safety school but did know that most riders end up vastly safer for having taken it.

His reasoning was that some people are adrenaline junkies. A shot of adrenaline is a fear response. In the context of riding, that fear comes from being in a situation with an uncertain outcome. If we coach the rider to a higher level of competence, that rider will have to do crazier things to get the adrenaline hit. In such a case, we have made a more competent rider but we have not made him safer.

In our experience, most riders are seeking greater confidence that is rooted in reality; they know that they have the skills to cope with the situations they put themselves into. They are riding within their skill envelope and the envelope is now larger than it used to be.

For the adrenaline junkie, I don't know that there is a way to convince them to stop being an adrenaline junkie. Life has to sort that out for them.
 
Risk compensation

Maybe he was referring to a concept called risk compensation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

The following is an excerpt from the wiki page.

"Risk compensation is a theory which suggests that people typically adjust their behavior in response to perceived levels of risk, becoming ... less careful if they feel more protected...By way of example, it has been observed that motorists drove closer to the vehicle in front when the vehicles were fitted with anti-lock brakes."
 
To be fair, I have heard of some studies finding a correlation of accidents and motorcyclists who have taken the beginner motorcycle classes. Here's one I just found now, but I recall there being others as well:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3141/2031-07

I do get the perspective. The skills we teach can be used to increase safety on the road, but also can give false confidence.

It's worth taking a longer look at.
 
I like this thread. I used to repeat the phrase "I lack the maturity and judgement to own and operate a high performance motorcycle" when people would ask me about one of my vintage bikes with drum brakes. And, to a degree it's still something I have to control. Was riding with a very fast group yesterday - and I'm no slouch, but I had to remind myself - "Ride your own ride".
 
What's that other rider's definition of "fun", and what's his current skill level? If he likes to cruise at the speed limit on sunny days and he's fully competent at that task, then you're not on the same page with him when you argue that more skills are needed for more fun.
 
Upstate Lefty said:
I like this thread. I used to repeat the phrase "I lack the maturity and judgement to own and operate a high performance motorcycle" when people would ask me about one of my vintage bikes with drum brakes. And, to a degree it's still something I have to control. Was riding with a very fast group yesterday - and I'm no slouch, but I had to remind myself - "Ride your own ride".
Click to expand...

One of the things that commonly happens as a rider progresses in skill is that the speed at which he can safely ride on the street is first dictated by his skill level, but at some point his skill level becomes sufficient to outrun his sight lines. Recognizing when one has reached this point can be a challenge and many riders may not realize that the game has changed in this way.

At lower skill levels, the riders concerns may be more about line selection, traction and even the sensation of speed. These concerns are obvious to the rider, are scary and will govern decision making. In some cases, riding vintage equipment may have a similar effect, where speed is more limited by what the equipment will support. There will probably still be turns where you can outrun sight lines, but it's likely to be a lower percentage.

It may be that the rider who doesn't wish to learn more has some intuitive understanding of the dangers of outrunning sight lines. I have a hard time giving someone that much credit when they don't seem to want to know more, but there could be a relationship along that line; perhaps as simple as, "If I can go faster, the consequences of a crash would be worse."
 
Nice post tz.

Sight lines are probably the biggest risk in the twistees for a seasoned sport rider. I know I recognize that and accept I need some luck to makes sure my ride ends well. Stupid as that is stupid is what I do.

Depending on luck being the stupid.

I don’t like admitting it but sight lines are a restraint that I break way to often. Fools game I suppose.
 
You ever notice how, at the track, newbies who crash tend to be going a lot slower than more experienced riders on the same bikes?

After a few years of racing, I felt like I slowed down my street riding a lot, yet there were times where I could ride faster without using my brakes than guys who were trying to go as fast as they could.

I guess what I'm getting at is that track riding made me aware of just what was possible on a bike, and also how fast it can all go to shit. Taking that awareness to the street maybe helped me understand where things like limited sightlines were a bad risk not worth taking.

Or maybe it's more simply a case of 'the older I get, the faster I was.' :dunno
 
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