Went down on Mt Hamilton

[Enchanter]

Thank you. That's exactly what I did. But I disagree and feel it's perfect for getting these lessons outta the way without too much traffic. There's the hairpin curves, narrow lanes, dealing with roadies and these fast stops.

I think that there are a ton of less risky locations for you to gain the experience in the areas you mention / seek.

The risk-to-reward ratio is off the chart for a new rider on Mt Hamilton. With zero traffic, a newbie is jumping into the deep end of the pool on Mt Hamilton. Adding other vehicles into that, is swimming with sharks.

 

[Butch]

I think that there are a ton of less risky locations for you to gain the experience in the areas you mention / seek.

please make suggestions.

I am, however, wary of riding in traffic to get there. We did Calaveras the other day though I had concerns about the narrow road. Midweek, midday, it was cool. Elfin’s skilz are good, I worry about cagers.

 

[Enchanter]

please make suggestions.

I am, however, wary of riding in traffic to get there. We did Calaveras the other day though I had concerns about the narrow road. Midweek, midday, it was cool. Elfin’s skilz are good, I worry about cagers.

Business parks on weekends. Roads with centerline stripes. Roads with escape routes (for us and for cars) that don't involve going up or down an embankment. Roads that have better sightlines, no or low number of blind turns. Flatter roads with less up and down grades.

It can be very difficult for experienced riders to remember what it was like when we first started many years ago. Things that we feel are low risk, can actually be very high risk for newbies. We tend to forget the mental aspects of riding (judgement and panic) that newbies are experiencing. We often do not take these mental aspects into consideration when 'coaching' newbies.

When it comes to 'cages', in multi vehicle crashes, the motorcycle is the striking vehicle over 90% of the time. That speaks to rider skill, mental and physical. See my signature. New riders simply don't know what they don't know. While 4-wheeled vehicles are a portion of the risk, the riders mental and physical skills play a much larger part than many 'experienced' riders consider.

The low speed fall that inspired this thread was due to improper front brake application (physical skill) caused by a panic reaction (mental skill).

 

[Butch]

Good stuff. Thanks.

 

[Enchanter]

In addition, if other vehicles are a concern, increasing our visibility can prove to be a huge benefit. Headlight and tail light modulators (or at the very least highbeam in daylight), bright colored helmet and gear, learn SMIDSY.

 

[N4teTheGreat]

I'm a big fan or fork or crash guard mounted running lights to form a triangle to improve visibility with the cager set.

 

[Enchanter]

^^^ oh, yup. Good point. More lights, spread apart = larger vehicle and easier to see.

 

[budman]

In addition, if other vehicles are a concern, increasing our visibility can prove to be a huge benefit. Headlight and tail light modulators (or at the very least highbeam in daylight), bright colored helmet and gear, learn SMIDSY.

SMIDSY is an amazing tool that really works.

On the first page of the 1Rider vid collection. Lots of good stuff there!

I threw down a 1/2 dozen on the Coastal trip. IT WORKS!

 

[ctwo]

Have the CA forum rules been significantly relaxed? I thought we were restricted to supplying only useful, qualified commentary on the reported incident.

 

[Lucytriple]

Well there, welcome to the street crash club! I don’t think I’ve had that one on the street, but I definitely have in the dirt, and my first thought is remaining flexy so that you don’t force a lot of input into the handlebars during heartbreaking (oh, sweet autocorrect—I meant HARD BRAKING!) Also, trying to move a tad bit back during hard brake to further lessen than that front end input.

Regardless, I agree with everyone else who said locking up the front is rarely recoverable. Glad you weren’t hurt and see you in the durt!

 

[ThinkFast]

Following Fit too closely?

Based on comment so far, perhaps not, given that no one else has brought that up.

Just thinking about some of my street survival rules. One of them is if I have to use the brakes hard due to something unexpected occurring, I consider it a crash.

Kind of like the 10000’ hard deck principal at fighter pilot school.

This then triggers an after action review that includes what I could’ve done differently to avoid the situation requiring the hard braking.

 

[PorradaVFR]

It can be very difficult for experienced riders to remember what it was like when we first started many years ago. Things that we feel are low risk, can actually be very high risk for newbies. We tend to forget the mental aspects of riding (judgement and panic) that newbies are experiencing. We often do not take these mental aspects into consideration when 'coaching' newbies.

When it comes to 'cages', in multi vehicle crashes, the motorcycle is the striking vehicle over 90% of the time. That speaks to rider skill, mental and physical. See my signature. New riders simply don't know what they don't know. While 4-wheeled vehicles are a portion of the risk, the riders mental and physical skills play a much larger part than than 'experienced' riders consider.

The low speed fall that inspired this thread was due to improper front brake application (physical skill) caused by a panic reaction (mental skill).

Excellently and succinctly captures a LOT of wisdom. Bravo.

 

[ST Guy]

Locking up the front is generally avoided with ABS.

 

[zanshin]

Business parks on weekends. Roads with centerline stripes. Roads with escape routes (for us and for cars) that don't involve going up or down an embankment. Roads that have better sightlines, no or low number of blind turns. Flatter roads with less up and down grades.

It can be very difficult for experienced riders to remember what it was like when we first started many years ago. Things that we feel are low risk, can actually be very high risk for newbies. We tend to forget the mental aspects of riding (judgement and panic) that newbies are experiencing. We often do not take these mental aspects into consideration when 'coaching' newbies.

When it comes to 'cages', in multi vehicle crashes, the motorcycle is the striking vehicle over 90% of the time. That speaks to rider skill, mental and physical. See my signature. New riders simply don't know what they don't know. While 4-wheeled vehicles are a portion of the risk, the riders mental and physical skills play a much larger part than than 'experienced' riders consider.

The low speed fall that inspired this thread was due to improper front brake application (physical skill) caused by a panic reaction (mental skill).

What fraction of the 90% figure is the situation where a cage obliviously, negligently, or maliciously violates the right of way of a motorcycle?

 

[Elfin]

SMIDSY is an amazing tool that really works.

On the first page of the 1Rider vid collection. Lots of good stuff there!

I threw down a 1/2 dozen on the Coastal trip. IT WORKS!

Thanks Budman

 

[Enchanter]

What fraction of the 90% figure is the situation where a cage obliviously, negligently, or maliciously violates the right of way of a motorcycle?

I don't know. From a motorcycle safety point of view, it would be a missed learning opportunity to assume that it was impossible to have avoided the accident / crash.

It would be better if we read that statistic and thought: What are the things that may have contributed to the crash?

Did the accident involved rider miss something in their scan? Why?

Did they make an attempt to swerve around the obstacle and were unsuccessful? Why?

Did they use their brakes effectively (not over or underbraking)? Why?

Did they not see the car far enough in advance to make a plan to avoid it? Why?

Did the other vehicle not see me? Why?

Then we can become introspective and actively take actions to improve our own skills in those areas.

 

[Elfin]

Well there, welcome to the street crash club! I don’t think I’ve had that one on the street, but I definitely have in the dirt, and my first thought is remaining flexy so that you don’t force a lot of input into the handlebars during heartbreaking (oh, sweet autocorrect—I meant HARD BRAKING!) Also, trying to move a tad bit back during hard brake to further lessen than that front end input.

Regardless, I agree with everyone else who said locking up the front is rarely recoverable. Glad you weren’t hurt and see you in the durt!

My hard breaking was heartbreaking. More seat time needed. Looking forward to seeing you again at StonyBARF.

 

[Elfin]

Following Fit too closely?

Based on comment so far, perhaps not, given that no one else has brought that up.

Just thinking about some of my street survival rules. One of them is if I have to use the brakes hard due to something unexpected occurring, I consider it a crash.

Kind of like the 10000’ hard deck principal at fighter pilot school.

This then triggers an after action review that includes what I could’ve done differently to avoid the situation requiring the hard braking.

We weren't going that fast nor was I following too close. It was just one of those newbie mistakes with brake misapplication. Unless it was the cement trucks fault. I mean why was he there on a Sunday instead of riding a motorcycle??? Loser. I hope he was getting triple time.

 

[Holeshot]

please make suggestions.

I am, however, wary of riding in traffic to get there. We did Calaveras the other day though I had concerns about the narrow road. Midweek, midday, it was cool. Elfin’s skilz are good, I worry about cagers.

Track event. There's no better braking feel practice than at speed in a controlled environment. Personally, I hate it when people use my parking lots for practice on their bikes. I don't need the hassle of a crash on my pavement. I'd bet most land owners feel similar.

We weren't going that fast nor was I following too close. It was just one of those newbie mistakes with brake misapplication. Unless it was the cement trucks fault. I mean why was he there on a Sunday instead of riding a motorcycle??? Loser. I hope he was getting triple time.

Eyes up and looking through the corner as far as you can with the slower, sharper corners with low sight lines, especially. Brake application matters and which brake you focus on, matters. It's not easy to lock up a front tire, but the easiest way is to snatch the brake lever abruptly and forcefully. I also suspect some target fixation. Spot an exit out of the mess if you can. Sometimes, shit happens and the bike touches ground....glad you're in good spirits and shape.

 

[Elfin]

I don't know. From a motorcycle safety point of view, it would be a missed learning opportunity to assume that it was impossible to have avoided the accident / crash.

It would be better if we read that statistic and thought: What are the things that may have contributed to the crash? Did the accident involved rider miss something in their scan? Why?

Did they make an attempt to swerve around the obstacle and were unsuccessful? Why?

Did they use their brakes effectively (not over or underbraking)? Why?

Did they not see the car far enough in adva

Track event. There's no better braking feel practice than at speed in a controlled environment. Personally, I hate it when people use my parking lots for practice on their bikes. I don't need the hassle of a crash on my pavement. I'd bet most land owners feel similar.



Eyes up and looking through the corner as far as you can with the slower, sharper corners with low sight lines, especially. Brake application matters and which brake you focus on, matters. It's not easy to lock up a front tire, but the easiest way is to snatch the brake lever abruptly and forcefully. I also suspect some target fixation. Spot an exit out of the mess if you can. Sometimes, shit happens and the bike touches ground....glad you're in good spirits and shape.

That's what I did. Grabbed both brakes hard. The road was completely blocked with no where to go. I just consider this one of the learning events that has a good outcome. Thank you