Neophite Question - Unwritten Rules of Racing?

[littlebeast]

Caveat - I know nothing of racing from an 'on-track' perspective. So my question may not be the smartest, but it is this - given the dynamics of racing - the high speeds, the close proximity - and the apparent trust needed between riders to run so aggressively within mere inches of each other - is there a line? Are there unwritten rules? Obviously riders are aware of what each of the other riders within close proximity is doing. What sort of change ups happen? What sorts are okay - and which cross a line? Say you are riding near someone, and they take the same lines, hit the same braking and acceleration marks - lap after lap. At what point do you make a change to unsettle someone who's in tight with you? Do you/they expect this? Should you/they? And if so, how do you/they counter? Is doing this deliberately part of racing strategy. Is it being a dick? An inquiring mind wants to know. If there's a better way to ask this or to describe the situation - let me know.

 

[kiltwearinfool]

Yes, there is an understanding between racers of what is acceptable and what is not. With that in mind, there is a lot of non-contact gamesmanship which is acceptable between racers vying for position that looks dirty or unsportsmanlike from the sidelines. Things like trying to outbrake someone or taking over their line when entering a corner are all part of racing. Pretty much the hard and fast rules are: Don't physically touch or knock another rider to gain a position. Don't put another rider in a dangerous position (like running off track) to avoid crashing into you. "Checking up" or "sitting up" are not considered running off track, just adjusting your line. Third - whichever rider is in front of the other has the line through the corner. In other words, if you and I are shoulder to shoulder, fighting for the line, and I outbrake you by mere inches so that I am just in front of you, it is generally accepted racing behavior that you let me take the line through the corner.

All things said about unspoken or unwritten rules, a good rider will find a way around another without causing trouble. It's when a rider gets frustrated with trying to pass the rider in front that they force the issue.

 

[Mick-e]

Don't physically touch or knock another rider to gain a position. Don't put another rider in a dangerous position

At a club level yes. I have to go to work on Monday.
At a pro level. What do they say in NASCAR? Rubbing is racing.
Oh and have you ever watched dirt track racing? Those guys bounce off each other like burms.

 

[lokisdog]

First realize that to beat someone you have to finish the race yourself, and trying stupid things on a motorcycle will usually collect you as well as the other guy, so basic "enlightened self-interest" would preclude most stupidity. You just can't get away with the same stuff on a bike you can in a car.

More importantly though, the people I race with are friends, we all help each other out in a jam, swap spares, etc. You race the same classes for a few years you all move together as a group; you get to know them very well. Some are fellow K@TT Instructors; others are good friends off the track and have been for years. Without the other guys it wouldn't be a race, they are what make it all happen and I have a great respect for them all.

And I all ever want to do on Sunday morning is beat every one of them, put my best up against their best, ride hard and see who gets there first. And they are the same. I expect no quarter from them and they expect none from me, and unless it's a situation where one or both of us is in immediate danger none is given.

Then afterwards we congratulate each other, apologize if we got a bit over-exuberant out on the track, and start talking smack in preparation for the next month's race.

You can't do that if they don’t trust you and you don’t trust them and neither of you cares about what happens to the other.

In other words it makes me my Brother’s (and Sister’s) Keeper and I know that they feel the same.

Every once in a while someone shows up who doesn’t get that, but luckily natural selection soon weeds them out.

 

[kiltwearinfool]

At a club level yes. I have to go to work on Monday.
At a pro level. What do they say in NASCAR? Rubbing is racing.
Oh and have you ever watched dirt track racing? Those guys bounce off each other like burms.

Yes, I should have qualified my statement a bit better. Elbowing at the start and into the first corner is pretty much universal.

I was thinking more along the lines of the blatant elbow Biaggi threw Rossi's way a few years back. It's often a fine line: One rider's elbow thrown as a protective measure can be a "flagrant foul" in another rider's eyes.

I still stand by my statement, though. While funny stuff may happen in the straights, most pros aren't going to try to intentionally put someone on the ground in a corner. The risk of them getting taken out at the same time is just too high.

 

[littlebeast]

thanks so much for the feedback. yeah - understand the dirt comments. my uncle used to race flat track. he said going into the turns they were so tight, and banging so hard it was almost impossible to tell who's bars you had hold of - your own or someone else's.

still seems like a tenuous relationship to me - aggressiveness versus safety (read - finishing). sounds like a tight community that is somewhat self regulating.

thanks again for the insights.

 

[stangmx13]

someone should tell all this to the kids in the Red Bull Rookies Cup. didnt anyone see the finish to one of their recent races?? the two leaders completely leaned onto eachother in an attempt to slow the other to the line. luckily no one snagged a bar or anything. but their parents should tell em thats jus not nice

 

[afm199]

Yes there are many unwritten rules, however they vary from racer to racer, so there is no way to know if they are common and shared. Eric's comment is correct. Taking someone out is frowned on because it often takes out both riders.

Generally speaking you know that the other guy/girl is not going to deliberately fuck you up. Accidentaly, as we all know, is another topic.

 

[Seesm]

That finish at the Redbull deal at Laguna was terrible total swear is b.s imo anyway... I was not a fan...

BUt if I understand what your saying here you asking if you have been doing the same stuff lap after lap and then do something totally different one lap to shake a opponent? Heck yeah in any racing I have done it is all mental... 2-4 laps of the same deal and the racer behind you expects they next lap to very similar but I say racing is racing and I always expect the unexpected for sure. I hope always people are safe to ensure we all go home no matter what series I am running or kinds of bikes I am racing that day or night.

 

[littlebeast]

That finish at the Redbull deal at Laguna was terrible total swear is b.s imo anyway... I was not a fan...

BUt if I understand what your saying here you asking if you have been doing the same stuff lap after lap and then do something totally different one lap to shake a opponent? Heck yeah in any racing I have done it is all mental... 2-4 laps of the same deal and the racer behind you expects they next lap to very similar but I say racing is racing and I always expect the unexpected for sure. I hope always people are safe to ensure we all go home no matter what series I am running or kinds of bikes I am racing that day or night.

Exactly. Yes - this is what I am asking. I understand the technical aspects of the riding - but know nothing of race strategy (well, beyond the obvious like tire management, etc.). I love your phrase 'expect the unexpected' - so maybe a weird question - how 'unexpected' can you get? Are you responsible if you really screw someone over with an unexpected move?

 

[lokisdog]

Exactly. Yes - this is what I am asking. I understand the technical aspects of the riding - but know nothing of race strategy (well, beyond the obvious like tire management, etc.). I love your phrase 'expect the unexpected' - so maybe a weird question - how 'unexpected' can you get? Are you responsible if you really screw someone over with an unexpected move?

Once again, it depends on what “unexpected” action you are doing. You do something stupid, totally out of context, inappropriate for the situation and yes, you’ll get an earful from someone who was adversely affected.

One major point to remember, there is for any track and rider a ‘fastest way’ around, certain lines, braking points etc, their 'plan'. These may and will differ rider to rider but you yourself want to establish a rhythm and stick to it to run your fastest laps. The more you deviate from this to try and play games the greater the chance it will backfire on you. I’m not going to catch up to and pass the guy in front of me playing games with the guy behind me. The more I can stick to my plan the better my race will be.

One example is running defensive lines. Towards the end of a race many guys will tighten up their lines to try and make it harder for you to pass them. Sometimes this works, but because these tighter lines tend to slow you down as well it sometimes allows the following racer a chance to catch up and get by, thus backfiring. For example, if you try to guard the entry to a turn and it winds up hurting your exit, you are now susceptible to being passed on the gas out of the corner, so you need to be very careful when you do things like this.

Guys may try stupid stuff like popping up earlier to make it look like they are braking early when they are actually still on the gas, or vice versa, starting their braking while still in a crouch but in general that noise only works on novices since an experienced racer will not be taking their cues from what you are doing in front of them. All you want to do with the guy in front of you is figure out where he’s weaker so you can pass him safely.

I would say the ‘expect the unexpected’ for me is more for looking for opportunities that may arise in the course of the race and watch out for crashes & other dangers in front of you so you don’t get collected.

 

[christofu]

It also depends on who you're racing. A good thing about club racing is that you get to really know the people you usually race with.

I would laugh my arse off at some moves that a trusted competitor pulled on me that would have me fuming and demanding action for unsafe riding from someone else.

Even then, SOME moves pulled by trusted competitors have left me "you must really have a lot of faith in my riding since you just put both our lives in the hands of my reaction time"

 

[paroxysm]

This doesn't happen to have anything to do with Laguna does it?

 

[ZIM]

My main unwritten rule is to not touch anyone or force them off track. I don't know very many of the riders yet and I was very nervous starting right next to one of my first real AFM friends (Dave Sapsis) just this last round at t-hill. I try and ride 90-95% within my capacity and I always leave the inside open and expect to be passed at nearly every corner. This usually keeps me out of trouble and I am not totally freeked evertime I see a wheel at the last minute.

I have had a couple of guilty moments but they were never preconceived and they were usually my last option besides going down.

AFMotorsports (Alex) has raced against me most of this season and hasn't complained so I must not be too erratic or in the way.

 

[PINNITT]

First realize that to beat someone you have to finish the race yourself, and trying stupid things on a motorcycle will usually collect you as well as the other guy, so basic "enlightened self-interest" would preclude most stupidity. You just can't get away with the same stuff on a bike you can in a car.

More importantly though, the people I race with are friends, we all help each other out in a jam, swap spares, etc. You race the same classes for a few years you all move together as a group; you get to know them very well. Some are fellow K@TT Instructors; others are good friends off the track and have been for years. Without the other guys it wouldn't be a race, they are what make it all happen and I have a great respect for them all.

And I all ever want to do on Sunday morning is beat every one of them, put my best up against their best, ride hard and see who gets there first. And they are the same. I expect no quarter from them and they expect none from me, and unless it's a situation where one or both of us is in immediate danger none is given.

Then afterwards we congratulate each other, apologize if we got a bit over-exuberant out on the track, and start talking smack in preparation for the next month's race.

You can't do that if they don’t trust you and you don’t trust them and neither of you cares about what happens to the other.

In other words it makes me my Brother’s (and Sister’s) Keeper and I know that they feel the same.

Every once in a while someone shows up who doesn’t get that, but luckily natural selection soon weeds them out.

ya right Eric,
first chance i get you and Vic are goin in the dirt

 

[brunty]

And another un-written rule i think if you do ever have the misfortune of taking some other rider out is to apologize and maybe go by their pits and check to see are they ok or even acknowledge the fact that you are a little bit at fault for what happened. Because i can tell you from an experience not to long ago that some people must think that they can wreck every thing that you own in one stupid move and not bother to even check to see are you ok..... But thats racing. But then there's also KARMA.

 

[littlebeast]

Again - many thanks for the time everyone has taken to respond. I've watched endless hours of racing - but I've never had the opportunity to BS with a racer - so you all have provided some very cool and new insights for me.

Sort of a thread-jack on my own thread - but another question really intrigues me. I am not any sort of quick rider, but I have noticed that when I ride twisties at a spirited (but controlled and comfortable) pace, I definitely feel myself drop into a rhythm. When that happens, I have the sensation that I am riding through a tunnel. Everything around me seems to disappear, and although I see the line I am on crystal clear - I have a hard time seeing anything else. Does this sound normal? Dangerous? How do you all manage your sight - what you are seeing while you are racing? How SHOULD it feel?

 

[lokisdog]

Again - many thanks for the time everyone has taken to respond. I've watched endless hours of racing - but I've never had the opportunity to BS with a racer - so you all have provided some very cool and new insights for me.

Sort of a thread-jack on my own thread - but another question really intrigues me. I am not any sort of quick rider, but I have noticed that when I ride twisties at a spirited (but controlled and comfortable) pace, I definitely feel myself drop into a rhythm. When that happens, I have the sensation that I am riding through a tunnel. Everything around me seems to disappear, and although I see the line I am on crystal clear - I have a hard time seeing anything else. Does this sound normal? Dangerous? How do you all manage your sight - what you are seeing while you are racing? How SHOULD it feel?

You should feel like "Wow, I need to start going to trackdays and stop this dangerous street stuff"

 

[littlebeast]

You should feel like "Wow, I need to start going to trackdays and stop this dangerous street stuff"

okay - i deserved that. no worries - i'm seriously slow. throw me a bone. i've read the books - especially the parts about seeing the whole picture without moving your eyes. tell me how it works. is the tunnel in my head? the only reference i have is in a previous life - i rode horses (jumpers) competitively - and i had the same issue. everything disappeared except what i was focused on. in that world, it was an asset. i'm not sure what to make of it in the moto world.

 

[lokisdog]

okay - i deserved that. no worries - i'm seriously slow. throw me a bone. i've read the books - especially the parts about seeing the whole picture without moving your eyes. tell me how it works. is the tunnel in my head? the only reference i have is in a previous life - i rode horses (jumpers) competitively - and i had the same issue. everything disappeared except what i was focused on. in that world, it was an asset. i'm not sure what to make of it in the moto world.

I would say IMO that yes, it's the same as you experienced on the horses, and the amount you are concentrating on the task at hand determines your degree of focus, visually and well as mentally, to the point where all your attention and focus is narrowed down. I would think that is the case in any endeavor that calls for a high degree of concentration. You can get the same effect playing chess; you don't have to be on a fast moving object.

We joke sometimes about the fastest racers, the Mladins and Rossi's and Spies type guys and call them "freaks of nature" when we see what they can do, and in fact in some ways they are in fact abnormal, in that they often have higher than normal amounts of the characteristics that allow you to go fast on a bike. Larger than normal Field of Visual Focus, shorter cognitive delay, quicker reflexes, etc are all traits that help them process more information quicker and act on that information quicker than the rest of us.

Bob Karol, a long-time AFM'er has done a lot of research on this, he has a lot of interesting data to show this. I think for example he was working with a sports ophthalmologist who did some testing on people like Eddie Lawson, Joe Montana, etc and found that their visual field of focus was noticeably larger than the average person. This is what allows them to take in more of the ‘big picture’ than the rest of us and process the information in a reliable and usable way.

The point of my comment however, was that if you are in riding on the street in such a way that your focus is that narrow then you are probably going too fast to be safe, since on the street, even in the canyons you need to pay attention to a lot more than we do on the track and cannot afford to have your focus so narrow. Slow or not the track may be a good next step.