Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[Keith Code]

LOL

Not to be sassy at ya but that is common knowledge, kinda up there with counter steering - plus that's a bit off topic from my question ^^. You're talking about what needs to be done to efficiently maintain corner speed/line once you've made the corner and are already turning. Besides, on the track or spirited street riding you'd probably want to apply more than 5%, after all, you don't want to stay in a 50/50 posture, more like a minimum of 40/60 (suspension works better/more stable).

I'm more curious on Keith's position on throttle control (relating to both questions) as you're trail braking and while you've already begun to turn but haven't reached full lean. I know there are times I have been trail braking all the way to my apex while applying a bit of gas at the same time to stabilize the bike and lighten up the front end.

My normal track situation is to be easy (brakes), very hard, finishing with easy trail braking while I start to turn in and then before I reach max lean angle I'm off the brakes, coasting, until the bike is fully turned and my goal lean is reached - then I stabilize the bike with a tad of throttle and slowly add more as the bike continues to rise out of the corner.

The question then remains, if someone wanted to try the advice of always braking or accelerating with no time in between what is the best way to go about it? If you apply too much throttle, including maintenance throttle before you're at max lean you unload the front, lose some contact patch, and therefore can't turn as quickly.

I'm thinking the best answer is to never mess up your braking, entry speed, or turn/apex so the second your done braking the bike is turned and you're on the gas. However, how often do us mere mortals get everything 100% right every single time? My second best answer would be to crack on as little as 1 mm of throttle which should still keep some load on the front but make the transition to further stabilizing the bike and driving out of the corner easier/smoother/faster.

Of course, my answers might be jibberish so I am asking Keith O_^.

11B,

Sorry, I just got this post, we've been out doing schools for two months.

It would be easy to duck out of this by noting that in MotoGP, when they run the gas and brake graphs on screen that you never see both the gas and the brake on at the same time, which is true, and see if you buy that but it sounds like you are looking for more answer than that.

It's funny because I just wrote an article about this aspect of riding that just last week came on the stands in "Motorcyclist" magazine for my column.

Can you get away with gas and brake? Yes.
Is it productive to try and shift weight off the front end under braking? You'd have to have a hell of a lot of throttle on to overcome even a mildly aggressive use of the front brake.
Could there be some other benefits? Yes, especially on bikes that have sloppy EFI systems or mis-adjusted ones that give you a sudden lurch when you try and get the gas back on, it could help make the transition smoother. (But the best thing for that is not developing another riding technique but to get the bike fixed so you don't have to).
For sure, in order to maintain a transfer of weight to the rear once you've turned the bike, you have to have a roll on. Most often, rider's hesitate on their roll on because the bike isn't yet pointed where they are happy with the result of their line or are simply uncertain about the line.

The hesitation to get the roll on started, in other words turning the gas on and holding it a moment is a solution to that. That's not horrible but you are right, they made some other slight error prior to that so it is a make up action or, in this case, no action. It does prevent an early weight-shift to the rear tire.

What you are left with is saying to yourself that it takes extraordinary skill to get it all perfect or to continue to practice putting all the factors together of really accurate turn entry speed judgement, trust in the tires that you can turn the bike a little quicker and still maintain traction and good enough visual skill to make it all happen. There are a few factors.

The braking tamplate that you are on to is most definitely the way to go. Straight up or trailing the brakes later into the turn, there must be a gradual release of the level or turn entry speeds will always be inconsistent, usually too slow.

BTW, it isn't just the contact patch that is helping the bike turn in a little tighter when weight is on the front, there are several other factors, again, I wrote some stuff about this in my "Morotcyclist" article, take a look at that and see what you think.

Does that give you some direction?

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

Keith, assuming the rider is efficient at flicking the bike or steering it quickly (for the most part). As one gets quicker and quicker do you keep the same turn in markers and just steer the bike even faster, or do you back off your turn-in points and take a little longer to get the bike steered. I feel that as I get faster I'm working way too hard on the bars to keep the same turn-in point, I've started to back off my turn in points a bit instead of wrenching the bars harder. My bike isn't the most nimble, but I feel I can be more smooth and still get a good drive on the exit by backing my turn-in points out a bit, still giving a good initial push/pull to get the bike leaned, but not always dropped all the way to max lean angle instantly.

Yody,

Part of this can be the coordination of the brake release and the bar pressure needed to turn the bike. If it is mistimed, it can feel awkward. For example, if you are releasing the brake and the front is rebounding, it will take more pressure to turn the bike because the fork angle has changed as well as the wheel base, it got longer, resisting your attempt to turn the bike a bit more. If you are trying to turn the bike in quickly with a little more brake, the bike will resist your bar inputs as you begin to tilt it over and that adds to the bar pressure needed to turn it as well.

You'll see this on another post but I just wrote a page on this for my column in "Motorcyclist" mag and expect that it will draw a good deal of controversy but take a look at that too.

Best,

Keith

 

[Yody]

Yody,

Part of this can be the coordination of the brake release and the bar pressure needed to turn the bike. If it is mistimed, it can feel awkward. For example, if you are releasing the brake and the front is rebounding, it will take more pressure to turn the bike because the fork angle has changed as well as the wheel base, it got longer, resisting your attempt to turn the bike a bit more. If you are trying to turn the bike in quickly with a little more brake, the bike will resist your bar inputs as you begin to tilt it over and that adds to the bar pressure needed to turn it as well.

You'll see this on another post but I just wrote a page on this for my column in "Motorcyclist" mag and expect that it will draw a good deal of controversy but take a look at that too.

Best,

Keith

I am largely a point and shoot type of rider, while I'm not claiming to of mastered the skill I feel fairly proficient at it. I read the article but am not quite sure how it addresses whether you keep the exact same turn in points the faster you go, the faster your corner entry is? If I had to guess I'd say that you might be implying that one should keep the same idea turn in points no matter what the speed and to work on getting better at steering the bike to be able to do so?

 

[Keith Code]

I am largely a point and shoot type of rider, while I'm not claiming to of mastered the skill I feel fairly proficient at it. I read the article but am not quite sure how it addresses whether you keep the exact same turn in points the faster you go, the faster your corner entry is? If I had to guess I'd say that you might be implying that one should keep the same idea turn in points no matter what the speed and to work on getting better at steering the bike to be able to do so?

Yody,

The simple look at it is which sort of line will allow you to maintain max speed through a corner? That would always be the line that would minimize the turn's radius the best, it's commonly called the "straighest" line through the corner.

BUT--not all bikes want to run that line. The 990 Moto GP bikes ran very different lines than do the new 800s because the 800s need to preserve max corner speed whereas the 990s had huge torque. 125 GP bikes are all about straightening the corners because they have very little torque for a hard drive out.

In the end, once a rider has found an optimum line for the bike or style of riding they are using they do not want to change their turn in point if they can help it.

Along that line of thought; the tighter (more technical) the turn, the more impact a change in the rider's turn-in position will have on the line he is shooting for. The more open the corner, the more options he has in getting a decent line and a reasonably consistent run through the bend.

Was that any help?

Keith

 

[Yody]

Yody,

The simple look at it is which sort of line will allow you to maintain max speed through a corner? That would always be the line that would minimize the turn's radius the best, it's commonly called the "straighest" line through the corner.

BUT--not all bikes want to run that line. The 990 Moto GP bikes ran very different lines than do the new 800s because the 800s need to preserve max corner speed whereas the 990s had huge torque. 125 GP bikes are all about straightening the corners because they have very little torque for a hard drive out.

In the end, once a rider has found an optimum line for the bike or style of riding they are using they do not want to change their turn in point if they can help it.

Along that line of thought; the tighter (more technical) the turn, the more impact a change in the rider's turn-in position will have on the line he is shooting for. The more open the corner, the more options he has in getting a decent line an a reasonably consistent run through the bend.

Was that any help?

Keith

Good stuff. New question;

You speak of the entire line, but what about just the entrance? If you increase your overall average speed including entry speed, would one need to possibly ever so slightly turn in a little earlier? With the added speed it seems like you would still apex and exit at the same point. Instead of just primarily countersteering harder maybe a bit more push/pull at the bars along with initiating the turn just a tad earlier?

I dropped 2 seconds today on my laptimes and it does seem like on some turns (mostly faster ones) that initiating the turn just a hair earlier, and also giving a bit more input at the bars allows me to reach the apex at the same place as when I'm going slower going a bit deeper into the turn before steering.

 

[Keith Code]

Good stuff. New question;

You speak of the entire line, but what about just the entrance? If you increase your overall average speed including entry speed, would one need to possibly ever so slightly turn in a little earlier? With the added speed it seems like you would still apex and exit at the same point. Instead of just primarily countersteering harder maybe a bit more push/pull at the bars along with initiating the turn just a tad earlier?

I dropped 2 seconds today on my laptimes and it does seem like on some turns (mostly faster ones) that initiating the turn just a hair earlier, and also giving a bit more input at the bars allows me to reach the apex at the same place as when I'm going slower going a bit deeper into the turn before steering.

Yody,

2 Seconds is awesome! What track and which turns seemed to go better with an earlier entry? Let me see if I know them so I can get a better idea of what you are doing.

Keith

 

[Yody]

Yody,

2 Seconds is awesome! What track and which turns seemed to go better with an earlier entry? Let me see if I know them so I can get a better idea of what you are doing.

Keith

Went from a best of 2:05 to a 2:02.99 @ Thunderhill, thanks!. Turn 8 seems to be a turn that works better if I initiate the turn a little earlier considering that there is extra run off room.

 

[Keith Code]

Went from a best of 2:05 to a 2:02.99 @ Thunderhill, thanks!. Turn 8 seems to be a turn that works better if I initiate the turn a little earlier considering that there is extra run off room.

Yody,

That is a deceptively fast corner. It would be very cool if you had DAQ or one of the good GPS programs to see exactly what difference it made. In any case, take look at what I mentioned in my earlier post: in less technical, higher speed, more open corners (unless you are at full warp 10 speeds) the turn in position on the road is less critical. So, when you say slightly earlier, you may have just arrived at the exact right line for that turn, for your riding ability, at this time.

If you use the basic throttle control rule of: once you get the gas craskced open you are able to continue the roll on through out the corner. Along with that, if you are getting back to the gas as early as possible, you can judge your line by those two standards. There are others but those are a great start.

Keith

 

[Yody]

Yody,

If you use the basic throttle control rule of: once you get the gas craskced open you are able to continue the roll on through out the corner. Along with that, if you are getting back to the gas as early as possible, you can judge your line by those two standards. There are others but those are a great start.

Keith

Okay, this sounds like a good rule of thumb, I understand what you're saying here and I can use this just about anywhere at any time, I like

 

[Z3n]

Yody,

That is a deceptively fast corner. It would be very cool if you had DAQ or one of the good GPS programs to see exactly what difference it made. In any case, take look at what I mentioned in my earlier post: in less technical, higher speed, more open corners (unless you are at full warp 10 speeds) the turn in position on the road is less critical. So, when you say slightly earlier, you may have just arrived at the exact right line for that turn, for your riding ability, at this time.

If you use the basic throttle control rule of: once you get the gas craskced open you are able to continue the roll on through out the corner. Along with that, if you are getting back to the gas as early as possible, you can judge your line by those two standards. There are others but those are a great start.

Keith

I had similar problems and experiences as yody and am finding that in some corners (T6 at Thill especially) I'm having to push my turn in later, and some other corners (T8 in particular), respond very well to turning in earlier.

For reference, I'm riding an SV650, and my best time at Thill is 2:04.

When I hit T8 just right while turning in less aggressively, it seems like I'll turn in at the far right of the track, and run exactly out to the curbing on exit. If I try to push in later and snap the bike over and make the apex, I invariably end up coming out midtrack. If I am running out to the curbing when I've used a quick turn turn-in it is almost always because I missed the apex. The late, quick turn in is handy for passing slower riders, but it seems that I'm carrying more cornerspeed and able to more consistently apex up against the curbing rather than a foot or so off if I turn in earlier and "arc" through the corner.

Is this just my lack of precision on quick turning the bike consistently at speed? Am I turning in too late/not fast enough and not making my apex as a result?

It seems that when I quick turn the bike properly, and hit the apex, I invariably end up midtrack, and when I arc the bike I consistently hit the apex and use a lot more track.

Any thoughts on how I should progress from here? My current plan of action is that it seems that best way to go about doing things is to build my drive out of 6 and through 7, and the additional cornerspeed will end up pushing me out to the curbing on 8, and by getting more consistent at quick turning the bike, I can use the late apex line and extend my acceleration zone farther into T8 while using the rest of the track. When I'm at race pace, I'm not braking into 8 at all, just a roll off/turn/back on the gas.

 

[Keith Code]

I had similar problems and experiences as yody and am finding that in some corners (T6 at Thill especially) I'm having to push my turn in later, and some other corners (T8 in particular), respond very well to turning in earlier.

For reference, I'm riding an SV650, and my best time at Thill is 2:04.

When I hit T8 just right while turning in less aggressively, it seems like I'll turn in at the far right of the track, and run exactly out to the curbing on exit. If I try to push in later and snap the bike over and make the apex, I invariably end up coming out midtrack. If I am running out to the curbing when I've used a quick turn turn-in it is almost always because I missed the apex. The late, quick turn in is handy for passing slower riders, but it seems that I'm carrying more cornerspeed and able to more consistently apex up against the curbing rather than a foot or so off if I turn in earlier and "arc" through the corner.

Is this just my lack of precision on quick turning the bike consistently at speed? Am I turning in too late/not fast enough and not making my apex as a result?

It seems that when I quick turn the bike properly, and hit the apex, I invariably end up midtrack, and when I arc the bike I consistently hit the apex and use a lot more track.

Any thoughts on how I should progress from here? My current plan of action is that it seems that best way to go about doing things is to build my drive out of 6 and through 7, and the additional cornerspeed will end up pushing me out to the curbing on 8, and by getting more consistent at quick turning the bike, I can use the late apex line and extend my acceleration zone farther into T8 while using the rest of the track. When I'm at race pace, I'm not braking into 8 at all, just a roll off/turn/back on the gas.

Z3n,

Aside from your track position, which gives you the fastest exit? Track position doesn't always tell the whole story.

Also, as above, which one gets you back to the gas the earliest and allows for a continuous roll on mid corner AND gets you to full throttle the earliest?

Those are the key points to a turn such as Turn #8 T-Hill.

If you had some measure of RPM or MPH or both that would be the only objective test. I know that world teams are using this data to make decisions on both bike setup and rider info.

Keith

 

[Yody]

Also, as above, which one gets you back to the gas the earliest and allows for a continuous roll on mid corner AND gets you to full throttle the earliest?

Those are the key points to a turn such as Turn #8 T-Hill.

I like this beause it gets rid of the thoughts of "where" is the best turn-in and all other conjecture. It really gets down the the point. It addresses the key points without really trying to pinpoint a variable that is always changing

 

[Keith Code]

I like this beause it gets rid of the thoughts of "where" is the best turn-in and all other conjecture. It really gets down the the point. It addresses the key points without really trying to pinpoint a variable that is always changing

Agreed. Since my first attempts at trying to understand how to ride, I've held onto the idea that information was only as valuable as it was applicable--that it could be used by anyone--that it would apply to all or most situations. Never been a big fan of trying to teach someone how to ride a specific track. By the same token, examples, such as the T-Hill one are a great place to start a dialog.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Keith

 

[Alexey]

Agreed. Since my first attempts at trying to understand how to ride, I've held onto the idea that information was only as valuable as it was applicable--that it could be used by anyone--that it would apply to all or most situations. Never been a big fan of trying to teach someone how to ride a specific track. By the same token, examples, such as the T-Hill one are a great place to start a dialog.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Keith

This touches on something that's been on my mind recently. In 2005, I had moved east and resumed racing at Loudon as my primary "home" track. It's a somewhat peculiar place, being a bit small with relatively low speeds and yet not the safest by today's standards. There is a school that has a long history of operating there, hosting track days, race schools, and providing all manners of support at the races. For many people, it's the only track they'll race for years. The school has garnered a good reputation for their advanced racer-focused classes, guaranteeing shaving seconds off people's lap times, even when they're just stuck, or lost confidence after a crash. I've seen their instructors, who are all highly respected and successful in their own racing and track-related businesses, walking with students around the track, showing lines and reference points, answering questions. I've talked to a few former students and they've confirmed that indeed the school primarily focuses on riding that track. And yes, they've improved their times for the most part.

I've been wanting to take a school of some sort. I'd love to attend Keith's school, when they come around. Due to a variety of logistical reasons, this hasn't happened yet. Maybe next year. But I've also been tempted by the relatively low cost and convenience of being able to take the aforementioned class and just pick up a few pointers, while I'm already there for a race weekend. I was thinking that it'd be great if I could take what they teach and try to translate it into more general knowledge I could apply elsewhere. Hm...

 

[Keith Code]

This touches on something that's been on my mind recently. In 2005, I had moved east and resumed racing at Loudon as my primary "home" track. It's a somewhat peculiar place, being a bit small with relatively low speeds and yet not the safest by today's standards. There is a school that has a long history of operating there, hosting track days, race schools, and providing all manners of support at the races. For many people, it's the only track they'll race for years. The school has garnered a good reputation for their advanced racer-focused classes, guaranteeing shaving seconds off people's lap times, even when they're just stuck, or lost confidence after a crash. I've seen their instructors, who are all highly respected and successful in their own racing and track-related businesses, walking with students around the track, showing lines and reference points, answering questions. I've talked to a few former students and they've confirmed that indeed the school primarily focuses on riding that track. And yes, they've improved their times for the most part.

I've been wanting to take a school of some sort. I'd love to attend Keith's school, when they come around. Due to a variety of logistical reasons, this hasn't happened yet. Maybe next year. But I've also been tempted by the relatively low cost and convenience of being able to take the aforementioned class and just pick up a few pointers, while I'm already there for a race weekend. I was thinking that it'd be great if I could take what they teach and try to translate it into more general knowledge I could apply elsewhere. Hm...

Alexey,

The Wood family and Penguin school has a very long standing relationship with Loudon and before that, Bryar Motorsports Park. It was started in the 70s by Joe Ziegler and Jerry Wood was part of it even then--I believe he might have been there from the start.

Joe was a very bright guy and the Penguin school was, initially, the entry point into the AAMRR club that also used to run at Bridgehampton. Lots of good riders came out of that club. It was then, and is still, very cliquey, which is part of the charm of it.

When I first raced there in the 70s I was "assumed" into the fold, mainly because Johnny Bettencourt and I got along really well. Later when I started the Superbike School, we went up to Loudon on a yearly basis and always had a great time doing schools there and hanging out with all the local folks, some of which I still maintain contact with. I have a lot of Loudon stories. Since I also had a school, Jerry used to give me a lot of flak about my "rent a bike school". Of course, that's exactly what he's now doing, ha ha.

I'm not up on exactly what the Wood boys do in their schools, I hear things but I have no first hand experience with what they do. You'd have to say that they definitely have more experience at that track than anyone in the world, that would be for sure.

What has been interesting on my own road of discovery is the 90 some tracks we've run around the world. There is a certain different perspective that can be gained with that sort of information, that is one reason we've been so successful everywhere we go, which is now 17 countries where we are the number one school. I'm just bragging so don't mind me.

Meantime, for sure do Penguin and see if your plan to translate what you are shown into more basic ideas will work, I'd be interested to hear the results. Figuring out basics that apply everywhere is both the "hard" part and the rewarding part of any road to discovery on anything.

Keith

 

[Maverik4k]

Just finished Twist II DVD, awesome footage. Entertaining and super informative.

What stood out to me:
-HD was awesome
-Lens is a monster
-Chase cameras
-The CGI Models
-The comedy (which was in Twist I as well lol)

Good Job!

http://www.twistofthewristdvd.com/

 

[Keith Code]

Just finished Twist II DVD, awesome footage. Entertaining and super informative.

What stood out to me:
-HD was awesome
-Lens is a monster
-Chase cameras
-The CGI Models
-The comedy (which was in Twist I as well lol)

Good Job!

http://www.twistofthewristdvd.com/

Thanks, I'm really happy about that. It's been a long road to completion and since it turned out as well as what I hoped, I'm totally fullfiled.

Keith

 

[Alexey]

new school bikes

Keith,

This may be a little off-topic for this particular thread, but it's been quiet here lately, so...

A few days ago I got the latest newsletter from your school, which indicated that the school has switched to BMW's, with primary focus being on the S1000RR. Up until then, my understanding is that the school was putting students on 600's and this seems like quite a jump. Any thoughts on this? Any feedback from the students so far? I'm sure the BMW is a fine machine, I've just never thought of liter bikes as being particularly well suited to training.

 

[Keith Code]

Keith,

This may be a little off-topic for this particular thread, but it's been quiet here lately, so...

A few days ago I got the latest newsletter from your school, which indicated that the school has switched to BMW's, with primary focus being on the S1000RR. Up until then, my understanding is that the school was putting students on 600's and this seems like quite a jump. Any thoughts on this? Any feedback from the students so far? I'm sure the BMW is a fine machine, I've just never thought of liter bikes as being particularly well suited to training.

Hi Alexey,

Good question, what makes a bike well suited for training? Light, well mannered (as in doesn't have a peaky power curve), has good enough power to get your ya yas, stable, turns well, fits the rider reasonably, properly serviced and has good tires. That is about all the important points that would define a decent bike for training someone to ride sport bikes at race tracks. How does that sound to you?

Keith

 

[Alexey]

Hi Alexey,

Good question, what makes a bike well suited for training? Light, well mannered (as in doesn't have a peaky power curve), has good enough power to get your ya yas, stable, turns well, fits the rider reasonably, properly serviced and has good tires. That is about all the important points that would define a decent bike for training someone to ride sport bikes at race tracks. How does that sound to you?

Keith

Sounds good, certainly. And I'm sure with exercises that focus on honing one's sense of speed and dialing in corner entry like the no-brakes-or-shifting drill, big power won't matter much. I don't have any first-hand liter bike track time under my belt and I've never been to your school, which is partly why I was asking. Common knowledge dictates "you don't want big power as you're learning". I suspect it's much less of a factor in a controlled environment in the context of structured learning, but I can't testify to that, lacking that experience. Would definitely be exciting to hop on one of those bikes as part of the training.