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Women Ride

I'm not sure if mainstream is mainstream because it appeals to the greatest number of people, or if it's a way of presenting an idea to make it appealing to the greatest number of people... Advertising probably lies somewhere in between. Some products are popular for whatever reason and they are pushed onto the rest of us; others are crammed down our throats until we just assume that's what's available and "normal". I think that motorcycles are becoming more popular among women and those that have gotten into it on their own tend to like to distinguish themselves from men by flaunting over-the-top femininity in order to get a little credit for their achievement. As a result--and this is a guess--what's coming onto the market is this hyper-girlieness we're seeing in parts of this video. Many of us here who are into bikes don't need the reassurance that women are still "normal" just because we ride. However, I know many ladies who think that "regular gals" don't ride bikes and it takes something special to swing a leg over one. I could certainly see how adding "sparklies" and playing up the lady-friendly aspect of motos could appeal to those on the fence. All the women in this thread already own a bike and are not the demographic to which this campaign is appealing. There's other stuff regarding age, money, etc. but this is my basic take on the thing. I'm sort of torn: I like the idea of more women riding, but I'm spoiled now in that many women who ride are pretty competent. Toss in a bunch of chicks who just want to ride because they're drawn to "sparklies" and the overall skillset of the gender will surely be diminished. Whattya gonna do?

I agree with what you're saying... when I started riding back in the mid-80's, there weren't any women out at Carnegie... there weren't any women riding street on their own bikes that I ever saw. I rode with guys, and their expectation was that if you're gonna play with the boys, you're gonna play by their rules. I did- and I honestly feel it made me a better rider! I was expected to load & unload my own bike, and if I crashed my shit, I was pushing it back to the truck on my own- unless I was more broken than the bike! :laughing
There's also the aspect with the current marketing trend of "sparklies" of feeling denigrated... "women won't buy it unless it's pretty and sparkly... they don't care about performance, they just want it to look nice" or the belief that we can't be as competitive as men, so we need our own version of the "kiddie pool" (ie: 'Afemme' class in the AFM) where we'll feel "safe"... to what- I dunno... explore our feelings??? :facepalm Seriously, we're not "good enough" to handle Clubman racing like the n00b guys do?? To me, it puts the perception out there that we're not as comptetent as men... and that bothers me. A lot.
 
Toss in a bunch of dudes who just want to ride because they're drawn to "sparklies" and the overall skillset of the gender will surely be diminished. Whattya gonna do?

Fixed.

Welcome to our world too. Fucking it up for a lot of us since the inception of easy credit. :laughing
 
... so we need our own version of the "kiddie pool" (ie: 'Afemme' class in the AFM) where we'll feel "safe"... to what- I dunno... explore our feelings??? :facepalm Seriously, we're not "good enough" to handle Clubman racing like the n00b guys do?? To me, it puts the perception out there that we're not as competent as men... and that bothers me. A lot.

I can see why you feel this way about the class, but that's not its intent. Women aren't required to race in Afemme--it's entirely by choice. I believe it's designed to create a class where women can stick a toe into the pool without jumping into it completely and it's meant to be an exhibition to the general public of the larger number of women going into racing. That's all good stuff...so I have a hard time arguing against it, but...I have many reservations about it. FWIW, I've repeatedly protested the formation of a women's sub-forum here on BARF for the same sentiment you've expressed against the women's-only racing class.
 
I agree with what you're saying... when I started riding back in the mid-80's, there weren't any women out at Carnegie... there weren't any women riding street on their own bikes that I ever saw. I rode with guys, and their expectation was that if you're gonna play with the boys, you're gonna play by their rules. I did- and I honestly feel it made me a better rider! I was expected to load & unload my own bike, and if I crashed my shit, I was pushing it back to the truck on my own- unless I was more broken than the bike! :laughing
There's also the aspect with the current marketing trend of "sparklies" of feeling denigrated... "women won't buy it unless it's pretty and sparkly... they don't care about performance, they just want it to look nice" or the belief that we can't be as competitive as men, so we need our own version of the "kiddie pool" (ie: 'Afemme' class in the AFM) where we'll feel "safe"... to what- I dunno... explore our feelings??? :facepalm Seriously, we're not "good enough" to handle Clubman racing like the n00b guys do?? To me, it puts the perception out there that we're not as comptetent as men... and that bothers me. A lot.

Try racing for a year and then see how you feel about women's racing classes. I'm PMSing right now so forgive me, but I can't really accept your opinion until that happens.

To you and Heather, I can't imagine that you can truly understand how physical road racing is when you start to go fast enough to be mid pack in the big AFM classes. I say this because I used to not understand it and not feel that separate classes were a good idea. Thought all you needed was balance, coordination, determination and a cool head. I was sooo wrong!* (see disclaimer below). I need more quads...pecs...shoulders...core...balls. Ha!

I'm not trying to be superior at all for racing...just...it's WAYYYY more physical than I ever imagined. There are so few women who have risen to competent levels of speed (Angie Loy, Elena Myers, Melissa Paris) and I'm not sure yet if it's just because there are so few women road racing PERIOD or if it's just that we as women are GENERALLY less equipped than the guys to do it. Like tennis. Serena Williams can probably beat a lot of male pros but where would she fall in the rankings ultimately? 50th? 100th? Definitely nowhere in the top 20.

Anyway...I did like the video very much. I like AFemme. I like anything that gives more positive exposure of women motorcyclists to the rest of the girls in the world who might not open that door without a little encouragement.

*I'm also not a great racer, not particularly talented or fast...so maybe it really isn't that physical if I did it right. YOUR DOING IT WRONG. LOL. Totally could be the case. :)
 
Seriously, we're not "good enough" to handle Clubman racing like the n00b guys do?? To me, it puts the perception out there that we're not as comptetent as men... and that bothers me. A lot.
Sorry just had to pull out this quote.

So does that mean because women only compete with women in tennis, that they are not as competent as men?

YEAH IT DOES. 'CAUSE WE'RE NOT.

At least with tennis, and I'm pretty sure with motorcycle racing too, based on how physical I've found it to be. There will always be exceptions to generalities, and that's great...but what about the rest of us who just want to compete on a truly level playing field?
 
Try racing for a year and then see how you feel about women's racing classes. I'm PMSing right now so forgive me, but I can't really accept your opinion until that happens.

To you and Heather, I can't imagine that you can truly understand how physical road racing is when you start to go fast enough to be mid pack in the big AFM classes. I say this because I used to not understand it and not feel that separate classes were a good idea. Thought all you needed was balance, coordination, determination and a cool head. I was sooo wrong!* (see disclaimer below). I need more quads...pecs...shoulders...core...balls. Ha!

I'm not trying to be superior at all for racing...just...it's WAYYYY more physical than I ever imagined. There are so few women who have risen to competent levels of speed (Angie Loy, Elena Myers, Melissa Paris) and I'm not sure yet if it's just because there are so few women road racing PERIOD or if it's just that we as women are GENERALLY less equipped than the guys to do it. Like tennis. Serena Williams can probably beat a lot of male pros but where would she fall in the rankings ultimately? 50th? 100th? Definitely nowhere in the top 20.

Anyway...I did like the video very much. I like AFemme. I like anything that gives more positive exposure of women motorcyclists to the rest of the girls in the world who might not open that door without a little encouragement.

*I'm also not a great racer, not particularly talented or fast...so maybe it really isn't that physical if I did it right. YOUR DOING IT WRONG. LOL. Totally could be the case. :)

Tell you what, Christie... I'll get back to you next year, since I'm taking the NRS in July.

Sorry just had to pull out this quote.

So does that mean because women only compete with women in tennis, that they are not as competent as men?

YEAH IT DOES. 'CAUSE WE'RE NOT.

At least with tennis, and I'm pretty sure with motorcycle racing too, based on how physical I've found it to be. There will always be exceptions to generalities, and that's great...but what about the rest of us who just want to compete on a truly level playing field?

Hell of a difference between tennis and road racing- making it a completely irrelevant, invalid point. You take a man who's the same size as a woman, and he will be about 20% stronger, due to his musculature... even if they weigh the same, he'll still be physically stronger. THAT'S why women compete against women in tennis... although Billy Jean King seemed to do OK... just ask Bobby Riggs...

But a bike levels the playing field. And when it comes to the bikes, I think what goes on in your head has a hell of a lot more to do with one's success than what goes on in your arms and thighs. Self-defeating perceptions about being inferior to one's competition certainly don't work in any of the competitive sports I've participated in in the past.

In a much more relevant parallel, in the world of Equitation (horses), women and men DO compete against each other... as with a bike, the horse is a great equalizer. And if you don't think show jumping, hunter hack classes, cutting, team roping, etc are physically demanding, you've obviously never spent time in the show ring or hours in the saddle.
 
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I was going to say something about marketing & advertising creating demand for things designed to have some appeal to the lowest common denominator (such as Celine Dion) as there is a certain amount of desire to "belong" to a group that likes something popular but....

this is way better....:Popcorn

:barf

But the "lowest common denominator" explains so much... :laughing
 
Well .... why do you think that people talk about such banal crap as television shows as a way of relating to coworkers? My gawd, I have been accused of snobbery for not engaging in those conversations (no, really - I don't watch tv) - but humans talk about the weather, sprots, television - as a way of relating.

There are many (most?) humans who desperately cling to this idea of universality of good taste and refuse to acknowledge that in exchange - they don't get the really good stuff, you know? hence the popularity of Celine Dion, Harley Davidson and Keanu/Tom Cruise, etc. They want their friends to like what they like and to acknowledge their good taste - so you get .... oh, hell, there's just no accounting for taste.

really, that's what it all boils down to. People are sheeple - if someone wants to like something because all their friends like it and it makes them more likeable, who are the rest to say boo? I guess. But they are still tacky tacky tacky. :)

And on the flip side, there are people who like what they like simply because it is NOT mainstream and they feel pleased about their un-sheepieness as a result. No matter how ugly, uncomfortable or self-injurious it might be. ;)

For most of us though, we mostly like what we like because we like it and it makes us happy. Life is short...people should pursue happiness even if it includes watching Grey's Anatomy, listening to John Mayer sing (listening to him talk is much more entertaining to me), and engaging in March Madness behavior, as much as those three things irritate me beyond belief...

Connie, Connie, Connie. Like Heather said, if you pass NRS and continue to race, you are welcome to race whatever Saturday afternoon class you like. No one is saying you're not competent enough to run Clubman with the boys. I believe that we are all competent enough to get to an extremely proficient level of racing, including blowing all of the Clubman boys out of the water.

I won't speak for Joy, whom I worked with to get the AFemme race on the grid, but I think the race serves many purposes: making girl racers more visible to help inspire other women to ride/track/race, giving girls who are not as confident and courageous as you an easier in, and giving girls like me, Joy, Zoe, Jenn, Deb, Shelina, Kristy and others a really rewarding, fun opportunity to compete with each other directly. We all race the "co-ed" classes as well.

I've SEEN and FELT what it's like to approach mid 1:50s at Buttonwillow and sub 1:50s at Infineon and still have Lenny Hale or Jimmy Wood go blowing by me so easily it's like they're picking daisies. Despite either running or cycling for one hour every day and lifting weights on top of that, I've had my legs cramping and burning on the fourth lap and my pecs feel like they are going to explode as I try to pass someone on the brakes going into turn 7. Over three years I've seen my pit mate, a 6'3", 200 lb, exceptionally athletic man come in after dozens of races that he won, very obviously having just engaged in something really physical.

Racing is physical Connie. It's more physical than equestrian sports (which I've competed in) and less physical than tennis (which I've also competed in). I'm not defeating myself, I'm just making observations from my own experience racing an SV in nearly seventy five races over the past two years, and now trying to compete with the REALLY fast guys and girls on my new 600.

I'll remind you that I used to think like you and now I don't. Good luck at the NRS, and if you race. They have that Clubman series now, you can race it all year. That would have been a lot more fun than being gridded up 74th out of 74 on the grid at Infineon my second motorcycle race ever. I could barely see the green flag.
 
Damn. I had a nice long response and it deleted before it posted. Crap.
 
Wow, so I will have to read more later, I have just skimmed through, but I have to clarify a couple of things here.... GixxerGirl1000.... You’re gonna be eating your words. I started racing because I love chewing up and spitting out girls that “ride” on the street. And guys too. I thought I would squash the girls at the track... I had another thing coming. Racing is to riding like T-ball is to major league.

Are you seriously saying that riding a bike is physically equal to riding a horse? Hun, I used to show horses too. Did jumping, hunter hack, team penning, rode horses my whole life. While I will acknowledge that riding on the Street could be similar physically..... racing is another world. Welcome. The bike does not equalize things. Furthermore, you are completely taking credit away from all the pro's out there who work out constantly to stay in the shape it takes to muscle the bike around the track. Do you think they do that just for show? The first race you do, you will park the bike completely drenched in sweat. I rarely was completely drenched in sweat when I rode horses.

You are talking to Christie, one of the most badass chicks out there. She knows what she is talking about. Not only does racing take the musculature that you do not have, the guys have a COMPLETELY different mentality than the average chick. (I will knock your ass off the track and not think twice so do not make the mistake of wrapping me into that generalization). We DO race with the guys. I was a rookie last season and went from the back of the pack to placing around 17th in the 600 class and consistently being in the top 3 in Clubman. I am ALL ABOUT "If you can't hang with the guys, get the hell out of their way".

I was against AFemme when it first came about, I didnt like the chick class idea much at first either. However, it is a more level playing field for the girls that do enjoy racing. Ask anyone who has been racing.

All that said, Christie- I am not in agreement that I am out there to pave the way for other chicks to race and to make it easier for girls in the sport. I am a firm believer that if you cant hang with the boys you shouldn’t be in their sport, place of work, whatever. I do not want to make it easier for girls who are not at a high level of riding to be in the sport. We do have to work harder to be at the same level as they do, that’s the game we are in.

I prefer pretentious girls stay the hell off the track. I do not appreciate the negative opinion it gives to people about girls playing in the guys world. So GxxrGrl. Button your lip and just do it. Rather than talking about things you do not know. At the very least, the class helps keep the girls who can't hang with the boys out of their way, ever thought of that? Gives them somewhere to compete in. So if you really can hang with them, go prove it, don’t whine about the fact that there’s a separate optional class that you can be competitive in. You will be learning a lot if you actually start racing.
 
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its funny how they spend more time showing the chicks modeling in front of a camera than they show of them actually riding.

im sure the guy that directed that was like, 'riding?! who wants to see them riding? lets try to show them looking cute as women do! go ask them what size bikini they wear.'




oh and what's with the porn music during the photo shoots? :wtf

i got off :thumbup
 
P.S. Thanks for the video, those chicks are awesome.
I like that they show off the pretty chicks that are good at racing. Us girls look at the hot guy racers, what is the difference of expecting a girl racer to be hot too? I mean, they are in peak physical shape right? So if we are "equal" (hah) lets follow it through. We want hot girl racers just like we want hot guy racers!
 
Wow, so I will have to read more later, I have just skimmed through, but I have to clarify a couple of things here.... GixxerGirl1000.... You’re gonna be eating your words. I started racing because I love chewing up and spitting out girls that “ride” on the street. And guys too. I thought I would squash the girls at the track... I had another thing coming. Racing is to riding like T-ball is to major league.

Are you seriously saying that riding a bike is physically equal to riding a horse? Hun, I used to show horses too. Did jumping, hunter hack, team penning, rode horses my whole life. While I will acknowledge that riding on the Street could be similar physically..... racing is another world. Welcome. The bike does not equalize things. Furthermore, you are completely taking credit away from all the pro's out there who work out constantly to stay in the shape it takes to muscle the bike around the track. Do you think they do that just for show? The first race you do, you will park the bike completely drenched in sweat. I rarely was completely drenched in sweat when I rode horses.

You are talking to Christie, one of the most badass chicks out there. She knows what she is talking about. Not only does racing take the musculature that you do not have, the guys have a COMPLETELY different mentality than the average chick. (I will knock your ass off the track and not think twice so do not make the mistake of wrapping me into that generalization). We DO race with the guys. I was a rookie last season and went from the back of the pack to placing around 17th in the 600 class and consistently being in the top 3 in Clubman. I am ALL ABOUT "If you can't hang with the guys, get the hell out of their way".

I was against AFemme when it first came about, I didnt like the chick class idea much at first either. However, it is a more level playing field for the girls that do enjoy racing. Ask anyone who has been racing.

All that said, Christie- I am not in agreement that I am out there to pave the way for other chicks to race and to make it easier for girls in the sport. I am a firm believer that if you cant hang with the boys you shouldn’t be in their sport, place of work, whatever. I do not want to make it easier for girls who are not at a high level of riding to be in the sport. We do have to work harder to be at the same level as they do, that’s the game we are in.

I prefer pretentious girls stay the hell off the track. I do not appreciate the negative opinion it gives to people about girls playing in the guys world. So GxxrGrl. Button your lip and just do it. Rather than talking about things you do not know. At the very least, the class helps keep the girls who can't hang with the boys out of their way, ever thought of that? Gives them somewhere to compete in. So if you really can hang with them, go prove it, don’t whine about the fact that there’s a separate optional class that you can be competitive in. You will be learning a lot if you actually start racing.

:Popcorn
 
LOL @ thread. :laughing:laughing

BARF = many experts at talking the talk. It's always good to hear the truth from the people actually doing something instead of just writing about something. Perspective is priceless.
 
You are talking to Christie, one of the most badass chicks out there.
You're sorely mistaken. Um, I cried the first time (um, first THREE times) I went mountain biking, pretty sure you didn't. Ha!

All that said, Christie- I am not in agreement that I am out there to pave the way for other chicks to race and to make it easier for girls in the sport.

Sure, you're not there to pave the way and neither am I. We're there to race hard, beat people and pursue the sport. But, there is the likely side effect of other chicks taking note of us and maybe trying something they might really love and rock at. The posers will come too, but more on that later...

I am a firm believer that if you cant hang with the boys you shouldn’t be in their sport, place of work, whatever. I do not want to make it easier for girls who are not at a high level of riding to be in the sport. We do have to work harder to be at the same level as they do, that’s the game we are in.

A hundred years ago horseback riding was their sport. Tennis used to be their sport. No one would ever say now that it's either for boys OR for girls. Motorcycle racing can be our sport too, just, most women won't believe it until they see lots of girls doing it.

I prefer pretentious girls stay the hell off the track. I do not appreciate the negative opinion it gives to people about girls playing in the guys world.

I understand how you feel and usually feel the same way. It's kind of like seeing a rich chick on the bunny slope with her cute skiing outfit and everything matching (I like to have the cute outfit with everything matching too but then blow everyone's doors off, hehe).

But, think of it this way. Pretentious posers support the vendors we know and love, the vendors who support us (or would, if they were doing better financially), by buying lots of stuff. The more pretentious posers we attract to the sport of motorcycle racing, men AND women, the better it will be for our suspension guys, our motor guys, our photo guys, our parts guys, the manufacturers, etc. All of us, from the club racers to the AMA guys and girls, will have more money to go racing. :)

I honestly don't give a shit who goes or doesn't go racing. People should pursue happiness however they please. I love it when I see 9 entries for AFemme though (and I hate it when I don't see Shelina's name in there ;) ). I want to see 30 chicks on the grid, posers or not. I'd be so stoked if that were to ever happen while I'm racing.
 
But, think of it this way. Pretentious posers support the vendors we know and love, the vendors who support us (or would, if they were doing better financially), by buying lots of stuff. The more pretentious posers we attract to the sport of motorcycle racing, men AND women, the better it will be for our suspension guys, our motor guys, our photo guys, our parts guys, the manufacturers, etc. All of us, from the club racers to the AMA guys and girls, will have more money to go racing. :)

This is why I love seeing guys out on the street with their non-power commanded R6s with totally kickin' rad race pipes. Sure, they're breaking the law and probably pissing some people off, not to mention the absolutely awesome hole in the middle of their powerband and the lost power on the top end, but I love them for supporting racing. God knows I'm too fucking poor to buy up the entire Galfer/Leo Vince/whatever catalog because I'm spending all my money trying to get back into racing. :laughing

God bless the pretentious posers, paying the development costs for our race parts. :)

I'm out there to race. The rest of it is just window filling, once the visor goes down, we're all the same out there in my mind. I do think it's unfortunate that sexism can overflow into the paddock, and hopefully one day we can all go out and have fun together, regardless of gender or anything else. It should be all about racing motorcycles, after all :)
 
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this is a very interesting thread. Thank you ladies, all of you!
As I understand it, racing is a very demanding sport both mentally and physically. I can imagine that it will be those individuals who are strong on both levels who will continue to improve and work on their game plan.
 
But, think of it this way. Pretentious posers support the vendors we know and love, the vendors who support us (or would, if they were doing better financially), by buying lots of stuff. The more pretentious posers we attract to the sport of motorcycle racing, men AND women, the better it will be for our suspension guys, our motor guys, our photo guys, our parts guys, the manufacturers, etc. All of us, from the club racers to the AMA guys and girls, will have more money to go racing. :)

Gooooood Point....... and the hotter the racers are, the more the pretentious posers will want to be like them..... riiight??? I don't understand why this was even blown out of proportion in the first place. Over this video, really? These chicks are bad ass. Straight up. Much respect for that. and Wow, they happen to be super hot besides...! Great, because thats what sells. Guys or girls. You cant change human nature. I like that they aren't ugly and do take care of themselves. I dont see "sparkly" in any of them... well, in either of the last two, but they All seem to be presenting their true selves and That makes it Awesome. Makes them Real and easy to relate with. That also sells. GREAT JOB LADIES! :thumbup Shit, I think I wanna go try trials bikes...! Christie, you down?

P.S. You are badass in my book, Christie, you're being modest (I have seen you ride).
 
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