Chinese knock-off CRG levers

[Feanor]

I am in my very early 30s, no offense taken. I agree with what you are saying, but, as far as I can tell, no IP protections apply to CRG's levers.

I understand that R&D, design, etc. is costly and time-consuming. The Chinese knockoffs are NOT the same product. My point is, they aren't "stealing" CRG's product, because they aren't replicating the quality, feel, etc. It is really more like BILT versus higher-end stuff. Those with more money, or who want the higher quality, will buy CRG and other "top-shelf" levers.

Again, the Chinese fairings that you are OK with...the OEM parts also took time to design, fit to the bike, etc., and the Chinese guys just copy that. Same thing right?

Oh I am only ok with the Chinese fairings in that they aren't critical pieces to skimp on. I personally would only buy local race bodywork though because of the quality. But I would be much more ok with a person buying Chinese bodywork than dubious overseas controls

For the CRG levers though compared to the imitations, what is being capitalized on is the manufacturer's branding and reputation. If the imitations are not copied directly, they are so close in design and appearance that what you're essentially doing is riding the coattails of the other's work, because people will buy the imitation with the expectation that it will be assumed by others to be the genuine article, you're diminishing the efforts of the other in many ways.

I guess we could carry this argument a bit further and say that suppose the Chinese brand was designed from scratch, tested by them and QC'd by them. Not as "nice" as original, but still original effort... Their manufacturing processes dump toxic waste into the water and air. The absence of responsibility of environmental factors contributing to much lower cost than the more stringent rules we have to follow here. On general principle, I will choose not to support that and buy the superior, and more expensive local product... This won't happen all the time with everything, but rather than brand myself a hypocrite, I will try as hard as I can to hold on to a level of integrity, even when it hurts, and hope I can improve on that over time, rather than simply becoming conditioned to buy the least expensive alternative...

I know times are tough Money doesn't go very far it seems these days and we're as mad to try to save it as we were before trying to make it...

But while others seem to wail about how much the economy sucks, I have a tendency to think that the world is exactly what we make it, and I try to do my tiny part as often as I can...

 

[Blankpage]

Was his name Curtis Loew?

No, the guy is from Quebec.

 

[Mike95060]

No, the guy is from Quebec.

I guess there is more than one great picker out there....

[youtube]03TgkCVDlrA[/youtube]

 

[jdhu]

For the CRG levers though compared to the imitations, what is being capitalized on is the manufacturer's branding and reputation. If the imitations are not copied directly, they are so close in design and appearance that what you're essentially doing is riding the coattails of the other's work, because people will buy the imitation with the expectation that it will be assumed by others to be the genuine article, you're diminishing the efforts of the other in many ways.

I guess we could carry this argument a bit further and say that suppose the Chinese brand was designed from scratch, tested by them and QC'd by them. Not as "nice" as original, but still original effort... Their manufacturing processes dump toxic waste into the water and air. The absence of responsibility of environmental factors contributing to much lower cost than the more stringent rules we have to follow here. On general principle, I will choose not to support that and buy the superior, and more expensive local product... This won't happen all the time with everything, but rather than brand myself a hypocrite, I will try as hard as I can to hold on to a level of integrity, even when it hurts, and hope I can improve on that over time, rather than simply becoming conditioned to buy the least expensive alternative...

See, I agree with ALL of this, and maybe I'm not communicating well, but that is part of my point. We should each make our own decisions as far as risk, value, morality (buying from a country with lower environmental standards, poor worker protections), etc. Some people here seem to think that their thought process is the only moral one.

Well, I guess I don't agree with the 1st paragraph I quoted. I don't see it as the seller's fault for copying a look (short of infringing on trade dress, trademark). Should the Chinese levers be made bright pink to avoid confusion? There are only so many ways to make a good-looking, "sleek" lever, just like smart phones tend to look similar. It is up to us, as consumers, to be discriminating.

Again, my Frank Thomas jacket is clearly made to resemble Dainese (the black and white scheme, Frank Thomas' arrow-shaped logo, which looks a little like Dainese's triangular face, or whatever that thing is). They want it to look nice, sleek, and well, Dainese set a standard. I see no issue at all, and it just takes a moment to realize that a lever/jacket isn't CRG/Dainese.

 

[louemc]

This thread has been a value..It gave me a few more bodies to feed to my ignore list

 

[Blankpage]

I guess there is more than one great picker out there....

[youtube]03TgkCVDlrA[/youtube]

it's like that, okay

[youtube]44tKGaWDqLI[/youtube]

 

[ElectricPrunes]

Every time you buy a lightbulb from someone other than General Electric, is it moral indecency?

 

[PorradaVFR]

Wrong. The US Gov rebuilt Japans economy after we crushed them to ashes in WWII. The trade agreements made them a trading "partner" with the US. The flood of consumer products was a calculated plan, not infringement. We gave them the technology Al, they didn't steal it. They improved what we gave them.

US leaders went into Japans factories, applied methods of QC, assembly line methodologies and output. We re-built Japan to be America's Factory.

Now chip dumping is a completely different topic, but that's not infringement.

I'm not so sure RCA or Magnavox would share your position, but I don't disagree that the Marshall Plan was intended to resurrect their economy. Perhaps the fake watches and purses on Canal Street in NYC is a better example - knock offs are hardly a new phenomenon, but it's easier to do today. Hell I just had something come across my desk along the lines of this discussion...it's a symptom of a globalized procurement channel far more than a commentary on a generation.

 

[PorradaVFR]

You'd rather take $110 that you will shit the next day and flush down the toilet?

Oh hey now, there are some meals that I still recall to this day...you're a known connoisseur of all things bacon, you know that a great steak is worth it.

 

[Maverick24]

Old people use the old mentality of buying local.

Anyone who uses logic is part of the "entitled" generation.

Got it...

 

[ST Guy]

Every time you buy a lightbulb from someone other than General Electric, is it moral indecency?

No. GE didn't invent the thing. (And neither did Edison.)

Besides, the basic patents ran out decades ago.

(Troublemaker! )

 

[ST Guy]

Agreed, but is this applicable? Are CRG levers patented? It doesn't seem like it...

If the Chinese knockoffs don't infringe patent-wise, then technically it's fair game. However, it's still kind of cheesy and low class to make inferior product that looks like the quality stuff and undercut the "good guy" by leveraging their reputation. Legal? Yes. The nice thing to do? No.

And even if they didn't look like the CRG levers, I'd still not use them because of the reported problems and unknown quality of design, material and workmanship.

They aren't exact copies, they just appear that way to the uneducated eye.

 

[Maverick24]

+1

I can agree that it might not be the "nicest" thing to do, but if there is no patent or it has expired then it's a free market.

 

[ElectricPrunes]

No. GE didn't invent the thing. (And neither did Edison.)

Besides, the basic patents ran out decades ago.

(Troublemaker! )

Ah but Edison is credited as the inventor, held the patents, and was the first to bring light bulbs to market, by his company which at one point he renamed General Electric . And I thought we were discussing a similarly expired patent. I believe he would've used the term, "boo yah."

 

[jdhu]

If the Chinese knockoffs don't infringe patent-wise, then technically it's fair game. However, it's still kind of cheesy and low class to make inferior product that looks like the quality stuff and undercut the "good guy" by leveraging their reputation. Legal? Yes. The nice thing to do? No.

And even if they didn't look like the CRG levers, I'd still not use them because of the reported problems and unknown quality of design, material and workmanship.

They aren't exact copies, they just appear that way to the uneducated eye.

+1

I can agree that it might not be the "nicest" thing to do, but if there is no patent or it has expired then it's a free market.

+1 to both. As you point out ST, only the uneducated eye wouldn't be able to tell that the Chinese ones are knockoffs. If the Chinese ones had "CRG" on them, that would be completely different, and I would be as pissed as everyone else.

Some people here seem to think that those dastardly Chinese manufacturers will sucker all these innocent riders with their low prices, and most of them will crash and suffer horribly.

There just aren't too many ways to make nice looking levers. It may not be "nice" to copy an overall look, but well, business isn't "nice." It is competitive.

One thing that gets lost in all this is that we, as consumers, benefit from all the choice. If we didn't have knockoff manufacturers, we would be forced to buy OEM fairings (front fairing for $300+, tail for $200, etc.), or wait for nice, used ones on Craigslist.

 

[ST Guy]

Ah but Edison is credited as the inventor, held the patents, and was the first to bring light bulbs to market, by his company which at one point he renamed General Electric . And I thought we were discussing a similarly expired patent. I believe he would've used the term, "boo yah."

Edison is credited with a lot of things, many not deserved. Others invented the light bulb. Edison simply ordered his minions to keep playing with different filament materials and gases until they got it right and took credit for it. Edison was a huge proponent of DC current in the early days of making electricity available to the masses. Never mind that DC would have required a power station every mile or so to address problems of voltage drop. He was fanatical about discrediting Tesla and his AC current to the point that he would pay local kids to capture local dogs and Edison would then publicly electricute them with AC current as a scare tactic. He even electricuted an elephant once for the same reasons. He lost out, though, and the first hydroelectric generating plant was built at Niagra Falls by Tesla and Westinghouse.

Speaking of Tesla, you might enjoy this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

 

[Papi]

you're a known connoisseur of all things bacon, you know that a great steak is worth it.

Well sure Al, but I will also not cheap out on shit MC parts. My life wont be eating steak wrapped in bacon if a part fails me on the street or high speed and I'm dead, right? Besides, I cook my own meat.

 

[Feanor]

Edison is credited with a lot of things, many not deserved. Others invented the light bulb. Edison simply ordered his minions to keep playing with different filament materials and gases until they got it right and took credit for it. Edison was a huge proponent of DC current in the early days of making electricity available to the masses. Never mind that DC would have required a power station every mile or so to address problems of voltage drop. He was fanatical about discrediting Tesla and his AC current to the point that he would pay local kids to capture local dogs and Edison would then publicly electricute them with AC current as a scare tactic. He even electricuted an elephant once for the same reasons. He lost out, though, and the first hydroelectric generating plant was built at Niagra Falls by Tesla and Westinghouse.

Speaking of Tesla, you might enjoy this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

Actually I wouldn't say Edison lost out His light bulbs worked just as well with AC as DC, and everytime someone turned on a lightbulb, it was money in his pocket

I've often been fascinated with that era of history though, can you imagine? What if Westinghouse had a stroke and DC power became the norm with all its inherent transfer problems? Necessity would have dictated tons of research in how to transmit power over longer and longer distances... Maybe Superconductor technology would have been invented 50 years ago, and the rechargeable battery technology would have gone orders of magnitude where it is now, with electric R/C helicopters having flight times of 4 hours and a flashlights needing new batteries every few years like smoke detectors

Gasoline used to be a waste product of refining oil, and they discovered it was a great fuel for that new fangled internal combustion thing... What if that never happened? Maybe we'd be driving around in hydrogen powered vehicles fueled by the sewage water... Everytime you flushed the toilet you would have another tank of fuel to drive to LA and back and the atmosphere was so clean that there had to be regularly scheduled releases of dioxins into the air at special stations to make sure our immune systems didn't go into shutdown

Of course, it could have gone the other way too and the Earth might have ended up like the Harkonnen homeworld in Dune...

So many possibilities

 

[KnifeySpoony]

That's how you troll...


jdhu is not trolling, he is actually attempting to have a debate that the other side seems unable to add anything substantive to

 

[Yakoo752]

Just exactly like when you write a book... The paper and binding materials and ink only cost a few pennies, but its the content, the intrinsic value that gives it worth and that value is intangible yet should still be compensated for... That is fa

ask any author - this is NOT how it works. Not by far. The bulk of the cost goes to the publishers and "their" distribution network. Printing, distribution, advertising, storage, layout, photography, various legal fees involved, shipping all comes out of the book before the writer gets his cut. iirc the average author makes 7-10% list price so maybe $2. per book sold, then you get into escalation rates which can push you up to 20 - 30% list but we are likely talking millions of books sold here. Most books never earn out so the author makes his advance fee (5-7k) and that's it.

My point is, they aren't "stealing" CRG's product, because they aren't replicating the quality, feel, etc. It is really more like BILT versus higher-end stuff. Those with more money, or who want the higher quality, will buy CRG and other "top-shelf" levers.

this - you can't patent a lever - everyone is copying this simplistic design. However; your components, your quality aluminum, your bearings, your tolerances, and the like all can vary the cost in the part itself. This is what makes the 2 parts so vastly different in quality.

If CRG lowered their price to be competitive, I'd gladly buy from them.

I know I may not be getting as high a quality as product, but I'm OK with that, because the quality is a diminishing return when it's a factor of price - EG, I'm not getting 400% more quality for 400% more cost. It's maybe 20% more quality for 400% more cost.

hence they are not the same product. CRG sells a better product for more money and since they are a better product people will pay that higher price for them. You are apparently not their intended customer.

The Bilt example is perfect here. imo, Bilt gear is sold and marketed to entry level riders who are concerned about their safety but not to the point where they will spend significant money on gear. Trying to compare Bilt to Helimot would be a futile exercise as they aren't even close to the same gear.

Trying to compare lower quality levers to CRG spec levers is the same argument. More time and energy likely goes into the quality control efforts at CRG then over in the China shop.

All the pieces you will find on our web site are manufactured utilizing CNC (computer numerically controlled) machining processes. All parts are cut from solid aluminum billets. We make all of our own parts in house. Making parts in this fashion is not the cheapest way to build them, but it is the way to produce a part with a high degree of precision, and finish. For this reason, CNC machining is the process chosen by builders in all forms of racing.