8-4-02 Mines Rd - 4 riders down - WTF?

[magyarbetyar]

As "responsible" adults laughing...man I crack myself up!) we should be introspective and understand when we are riding beyond our ability. However, I will be the first to admit that this takes a maturity level that not all of us have or sometimes gets misplaced.

With that said, I think there is a clear message here that everyone of us should, "be our brother's keeper"--especially in large group rides. When you see someone outriding their abilities, it is our responsibility (to the best of our abilities) to make sure that the this person takes it down a couple of notches.

I recognize that this won't be a panacea, but it would likely have made a difference in this case.

-9

BINGO!! We have a winner. Well said agou9. We need each other to keep ourselves in check.

 

[creech]

similar shit...

Last August I had some moron squid come into my lane take me out. I was leading the slow group of the sunday DocWong clinic up highway 9 on my then-perfect 1978 Bonnyville when a pack of tee-shirt and shorts wearing squids on GSXRR1000F4I's with polished frames and more carbon fiber than most F1 cars have came flying around what was a moderare right hand corner.

Seemed that each one of them were seperated by merely a foot at most, and they were moving! One of the riders in the back of the pack blew the corner and went head on into the SUV that was in front of me. His body flew up and over the truck and landed directly in my path. I was able to get hard on the brakes and swerved around the motionless carcass to encounter what was left of his bike scattered across highway 9. There was no escape, and the old Bonny's front brakes don't exactly keep Brembo awake at night... i ended up getting a chunk of his fairing caught under my front tire which acted much like a banana peel in an old Charlie Chaplin movie. Down I went. My perfect Bonnyville was perfect no more. I was fine, other than a few bumps and bruises, thanks to my leathers/kevlar combo I was wearing that day. The other rider was lying in the street, unable to move but still alive. Turns out he'd broken his femur, amongst other things, and had to be rushed off to the hospital.

What really pissed me off was a group of his friends came back after realizing that a buddie had crashed, and tried to move his bike out of the street. We already had highway 9 closed off at that point and everything was under control. They were trying to reposition his bike to make it look like it wasn't his fault. I had to threaten to kick one guy's ass to get him to not touch the bike, as I wanted the CHP to see everything as it was. There was so much fuel and bike bits, plus the rider in the middle of the road, there was no way this road was going to open until they got him outta there anyways. Needless to say, they backed down.

If you cause some shit because you did something stupid, at least have the balls to own up to it.

 

[Dar25]

I started out leading the A group (or 1 group, or whatever you want to call it) but it soon became clear that I was not the fastest rider in the group and I happily relinquished my lead (no excessive testosterone here). That said, I think an overhaul of group ride procedures is definitely in order, but I don't think the problem is really what we call the groups.

Guys, think about this!
If the Group Leader SUPPOSED to be the fastest guy of the group, how do you expect everyone else not to push their limits trying to keep-up/stay together as a group??!

Either the group will spread out or the people in the back will be pushing the envelope trying to keep up with faster folks in front.

After going to a couple of different group rides (BARF, Doc Wong and others) i began to realize that, the whole point of riding togetehr is not to push the limits, but actually go slower than the usual pace, sticking together, practicing your riding techniques, while watching others do the same, in a controlled, non competitive envinroment. If you have to push it hard to keep up with folks in front of you, then you are not practicing the skill, you are making mistakes until eventually you will make one that will have dire consequences.

Even the fastest group on the street ride should not be maximim fast to become a racing/competition effort. I realize that its the nature of the sport, to have extremely wide skill levels so splitting people in fast and slow is unavoidable.

However i think that everyone should pick a group that rides only 50% to 70% of their skill level, so you have a plenty of reserve and yet go fast enough to be fun. While you are ina group, practice (and SHOW OFF) your perfect corner lines, smooth and stable entry and exit, body english etc, NOT the SPEED or a POWER of your motor (for that there is a race track).

Remember, fast speed comes from learning proper techincs while going slow and gradually increasing your comfortable speed level and NOT from Pushing it as hard as you can.
As one of the famous AMA racers said " Learn to go SLOW to go FAST".

Trust me you will enjoy coming out of such group ride feeling like you learned something and had a lot of fun in the process.

SPEED makes people competitive, if you feel the need to stroke your ego, go to the race track.

my 2.5c
-Dar

 

[OldFatGuy]

Point taken, but I still don't think the leader should hold up faster riders. Who cares if the group spreads out a little. That may actually help to curb the competitive tendencies that seem to surface when people ride close together. As long as the sweeper stays in the back of the group, I can't see how it matters. At the risk of sounding like a moron, a big part of why I ride is for the adrenaline rush and to be honest, I don't get that when I ride slowly. I also don't ride beyond my limits, but I probably do ride beyond 50% of them most of the time.

 

[wei7]

SPEED makes people competitive, if you feel the need to stroke your ego, go to the race track.

my 2.5c
-Dar

PLEASE! Do not sign up for our trackdays if you have an ego or feel you need to stroke yourself. If you want to go to a race track please just dont come to our events. Too many people get hurt on the track because they think they are all that. Going way beyond ones limits on the track may affect others too. I guess I just see many accidents on the track that should not have happened because someone wanted to show their friend they were faster or stuffing someone because they really needed that laptime, then there are people who have told me they just get an adrenaline (sp) rush from almost crashing and they get off on it. These are things I do not need at an event. Going blazing fast but controlled is one thing but reckless is another. Thank you

 

[Dar25]

Agreed, if some riders feel that the group's speed is holding them back from enjoying the ride, then there are 3 things:

1) On the next stop, talk to the Group leader, ask him of the next staging area and start the ride first (ahead of the group leader).

2) On the next stop, discuss with all the group riders if they feel that the pace could be increased a little without taking anyone beyond their level. If you are the only one feeling this way, then try option #1 or #3.

3) Try to switch/upgrade to the faster group. If the rides are staged, then usually faster group will be in front and hopefully waiting at the next stop for the group behind. You may also want to use option #1 to get there early and discuss it with the Group leader of the faster group your switch. Then once your old group arrives, start at the last position (in front of sweeper) of the faster group to see if its comfortable enough for you.


Lastly, "OldFatGuy". What do you think is the source of your enjoyment when participating in a group ride?
Do you get the adrenaline rush when you are fastest in the group? Or just pushing hard regardless of other riders (ie speed only)? If you think you need to push yourself beyond 80% to have fun, then you may want to consider the racetrack instead.

Ride Safe!

Cheers,
-Dar

 

[Holeshot]

I'd say most of the Fast racers are near crashing at almost every venue....

But then again, Wei, you're right. Ego's on track days are no good.

 

[Holeshot]

don't worry, keep going up there with your helmet and challenging the road - that's your freedom so far. the guy who will tell you that you can't will be the man laying down the law. seriously, this is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of and an accident waiting to happen. and I don't understand why you do it, you say you are a PCA member so there are proper venues for this.

go ahead, fly by a cop wearing a helmet in your car. how about the freeways or down the block to the store too.

What's illegal about wearing a helmet in a car?

 

[Holeshot]

Wow! Old Gixxerdrew of Supra forums fame....

considering the zoo over there I'm not surprised...

 

[OldFatGuy]

Lastly, "OldFatGuy". What do you think is the source of your enjoyment when participating in a group ride?
Do you get the adrenaline rush when you are fastest in the group? Or just pushing hard regardless of other riders (ie speed only)? If you think you need to push yourself beyond 80% to have fun, then you may want to consider the racetrack instead

The enjoyment I get from a group ride is meeting new friends who enjoy common interests and then pursuing those interests together. I do not get a rush from being the fastest in the group, since I rarely am the fastest. In fact, I prefer to fall somewhere in the middle, with some faster riders I can learn from and some slower riders who might be able to learn from me. And I never said I need to push myself beyond 80% to have fun. I just said that I ride beyond 50% most of the time in the twisties. I think most people, if they were being honest, would admit they do the same.

 

[Holeshot]

From Labusas.com

"Once again I was with this group with the idiot bringin up the back. Thank God he was never even close to me, I only saw him when we stopped.

However to confirm that he was an asshole....when we were waiting for the road to open he gets in his car, the idiot who caused the wreck gets in shotgun, and they start to try to drive past all the other parked cars waiting to get through. He gets flagged away as the road wasn't open yet so he squeezes his car infront of a local in a pickup truck. Gets out and the old local says something to him about cutting in front of him. Punk kid in car says "well you don't have to be an asshole about it.. Why do you old people think you own the road !!!"

I wish the local would have kicked the guys ass, but he didn't. Just thought I would confirm others assumptions."

 

[Dar25]

PLEASE! Do not sign up for our trackdays if you have an ego or feel you need to stroke yourself. If you want to go to a race track please just dont come to our events. Too many people get hurt on the track because they think they are all that. Going way beyond ones limits on the track may affect others too. I guess I just see many accidents on the track that should not have happened because someone wanted to show their friend they were faster or stuffing someone because they really needed that laptime, then there are people who have told me they just get an adrenaline (sp) rush from almost crashing and they get off on it. These are things I do not need at an event. Going blazing fast but controlled is one thing but reckless is another. Thank you

Heh. Good point WEI. However i would venture to say, that consequences of a crash on racetrack is generally less dramatic than the street. Wide track, barrier softeners, ambulances on stand-by, better body protection etc. all play their role. However, since the margins are that much narrower on the track, its usually very visible when someone is riding above their head and other riders can make an effort to stay out of his way, if nothing else.
I do agree that Ego's on track are no good. However, i believe that 90% (or more) of people on the racetrack who have been there more than 3 times, have felt the urge to show someone that they are faster/better riders than that person. Even the best of them (at the WorldSuperbike Level)

 

[Dar25]

The enjoyment I get from a group ride is meeting new friends who enjoy common interests and then pursuing those interests together. I do not get a rush from being the fastest in the group, since I rarely am the fastest. In fact, I prefer to fall somewhere in the middle, with some faster riders I can learn from and some slower riders who might be able to learn from me. And I never said I need to push myself beyond 80% to have fun. I just said that I ride beyond 50% most of the time in the twisties. I think most people, if they were being honest, would admit they do the same.

I hope you didn;t feel offended by my words. I am just saying that if everyone will be riding with different speed in the group, then it would spread out and noone would even be able to see the guy in front or behind. How can you learn from someone you dont see?
There is no way a group ride can accomodate everyone's personal optimal speed level.
Dont you agree?

 

[SilverBird]

Even the best of them (at the WorldSuperbike Level)

Those guys are the worst show-offs, you organize a peaceful group ride, say at Laguna Seca and, here they are,hauling ass like there is no tomorrow. Even if the organizers put them on different rows at the start, they don't give a fuck they don't stay within their group, what a bunch of squids...

 

[therok229]

Ok this thread sound like the other 3-4 threads going on.

I just think the morale of this story should be. Ok just be a pal and inform people and the leaders. If they might be over their head, if they listen thats great!!! At least you tried.

I dont think anyone informed guy on F2 that he was outta control, over his head, and so people paid for it. Short and simple. Its not your job, not your responsiblity, but what if someone just said something......

 

[OldFatGuy]

There is no way a group ride can accomodate everyone's personal optimal speed level.
Dont you agree?

I do agree, to a certain degree. But I also don't think it necessarily has to. I have a range of speeds within which I am comfortable. Slow cruising just doesn't happen to be within that range. Neither does balls-out street racing. I was not offended by what you said at all. In fact, I really hope I didn't come off sounding like some kind of an idiot. I am absolutely not bragging about my riding ability because frankly I don't think I'm really all that fast. I have had my ass handed to me on a platter by plenty of other riders, including RobertR1, and I think they'll all tell you I did not ride over my head in an attempt to keep up. I also don't want to sound like one of those jackasses you see on TV talking about how they ride sportbikes for the speed, the rush, etc. I just like to get a little shot of adrenaline once in a while, then return home safely. No big deal.

 

[gixxer_drew]

From Labusas.com

"Once again I was with this group with the idiot bringin up the back. Thank God he was never even close to me, I only saw him when we stopped.

However to confirm that he was an asshole....when we were waiting for the road to open he gets in his car, the idiot who caused the wreck gets in shotgun, and they start to try to drive past all the other parked cars waiting to get through. He gets flagged away as the road wasn't open yet so he squeezes his car infront of a local in a pickup truck. Gets out and the old local says something to him about cutting in front of him. Punk kid in car says "well you don't have to be an asshole about it.. Why do you old people think you own the road !!!"

I wish the local would have kicked the guys ass, but he didn't. Just thought I would confirm others assumptions."

I love how people always take shit out of context... 5 bikes go through the road just in front of us so I'm assuming the road is opening... try to go around and they wave us off. The space I had been occupying which is now filled leaves the option of reversing backward 500 yards or parking one whole car forward of where I was... then old guy starts saying some asshole shit about nice parking job and I tell him to fuck off.

Labusas are just like this board a bunch of fucking keyboard warriors. Listen if someone had a problem with my car being int he pack say something like a normal person you know? say something to the ride leader the car is making you nervous or tell me to keep distance. everybody comes on this forum where they are nice and behind a keyboard and starts calling people assholes and morons. I understand people having a problem with a car in the pack, its totally understandable and I might feel the same if I was the guy on the bike. Dude if theres anyone on your ass for 15 miles they problaby want to pass you. Ezekiel let me by and he doesn't seem nearly as upset about it as anyone else here acting like they are he-man.

The people talking the MOST shit are ones who weren't riding anywhere near me so if you even fucking saw me that day say some shit. Ezekial did and I respect that. now that I know he wants space from the car I will give him that. everyone else go fuck yourself.

Everyone who actually met me that day seemed cool everyone else is catching bits and pieces and trying to take sides and act like a fucking hero.

I hate to break the fucking news to people but I wasn't anywhere near the accident that took place. So why is everyone so concerned? because ezekiel didn't like that I was so close to him? He expressed that and I respect it. So why don't you go ahead and fill us in as to why your feelings are important in this matter.

I stepped in to defend a friend that everyone is attacking based on obvious speculation witchhunt bullshit.

According to the scene no other bikes were there when it happened except the ones involved nobody saw what happened and nobody even took note of physical evidence except me.

Everyone is so busy trying to pin that shit on somebody and be angry about what happened. Its ridiculous. Holeshot I'm suprised at your tactic with posting that Labusas thing, I would think my reputation prior would speak for itself that I'm a reasonable person at the least.

Everyone is pissed because it was a happy world when you could pin something that happened on someone you don't know and then god forbid someone steps in and says otherwise.

The fact is if you KNOW what happened damn you better go fill out a police report because as of right now they don't have any witnesses? If someone who is there posts and talks about it thats fine I will respect at LEAST its their accounting of what happened. I wasn't there either in fact I was 20 miles ahead. And if you were in group A you would know what was going on.

Ask them when they stopped how much space I had behind them? Was I on anyones ass then? It took me maybe 45 seconds to catch up to them sounds like a reasonable gap? Why isn't anyone who knows what happened vouching for waht really happened? Or is it easy to join in a witch hunt?

The earlier segment was where I was behind ezekiel.. Perhaps he was slowing down because the car made him nervous and that only caused me to pull closer hoping he would let me by. I seem to recall that being the ride rules about letting people who wanted to go faster get by you?

What does this shit tell you about BARF rides, seriously this isn't going to reflect well on the members here. If anyone had concerns about the safety of the ride thats fine to express them, thats wonderful in fact the safer the ride the better but this shit is ridiculous. I will never ride with people who try and pull this kind of ridiculous bullshit later on.

 

[Holeshot]

Nice retort Drew. This isn't Supra forums. You won't get "your mother..." calls or that stupid quip "arguing on the interent is like winning the special Olympics...".

Can you simply admit that your stunt didn't go over so well? Is that so hard?

You're a biker (or at least used to be). You should fully understand bikes not liking cars running with them...especially when they don't know them.

I'd flame ya here, but you seem okay on SF.com, so...

 

[gixxer_drew]

Nice retort Drew. This isn't Supra forums. You won't get "your mother..." calls or that stupid quip "arguing on the interent is like winning the special Olympics...".

Can you simply admit that your stunt didn't go over so well? Is that so hard?

You're a biker (or at least used to be). You should fully understand bikes not liking cars running with them...especially when they don't know them.

I'd flame ya here, but you seem okay on SF.com, so...

you mean like this:

gixxer_drew
Rookie


Registered: Aug 2002
Location: bizerkeley
Posts: 32
Motorcycle(s): 00 GSXR750 9.76@147
These are valid concerns.. since I happen to be the cager everyone was referring to. And since this is an actual discussion about this problem rather then an attack calling people names I will make sure if I'm on mines in the future I will keep a nice fat distance from the bikes in the interests of safety.

The reason why I'm nto going "OH IM sorry" is because people start out their paragraph with things like "to the asshole in the car".

Or maybe this one:

gixxer_drew
Rookie


Registered: Aug 2002
Location: bizerkeley
Posts: 33
Motorcycle(s): 00 GSXR750 9.76@147
Ezekiel: I'm sorry about your accident and I'm sorry to hear that my car was making you nervous. This was not my intention.

If only I had known it would have been different.

I just want to say thank you to your friends for helping out with the towing thing and I hope your ok. I hope we can set aside the bike vs car incident. I was also going to have my friend relay the message that I'm willing to lend a hand if you need any extras putting your bike back together. Not sure if your angry or anything but I thought I'd offer.

or perhaps like I just said in the post you just replied to:

I understand people having a problem with a car in the pack, its totally understandable and I might feel the same if I was the guy on the bike.

 

[mercurial]

yee haw , I didn't even read half of that post.

Yea we certainly do our fair share of bench racing at labusas... its all in good fun.

gixxer_drew, I don't know you, I don't know what happened at the accident, I don't know who did what.

That being said (so don't bother /w your repetitive whiny little "you weren't there arguement"), I think you are a fucking idiot, your posts speak for themselves. Cars don't belong on motorcycle group rides anyway, especially little ricer cars driven by idiots with helmets on, you doofus. God damn I'd love to knock your mirror off if I caught you trailin me by 50 feet.

I mean your wearing a helmet in a convertable eclipse; I don't need any more info than that to judge you.