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95 mpg

Hmm. The Volt's $32K price after the rebate is too much. Doesn't offset the fuel savings in any reasonable amount of time. I'll wait.

Thing is, it isn't trying to be an economy car.

What else can you buy for 32K that's more impressive? I'm guessing a bone-stock TL or G37 maybe.......maybe. And even if so, they wouldn't have as many features or as much low-end torque.

You could also buy a loaded Accord or Camry....... if you wanted an incredibly boring car.
 
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Agree - Porsche 918 Hybrid Spyder - buy it for reasons other than price.

porsche_918.top.jpg

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Its European twin is a much better looking car.
 

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sorry. i'm still not (at all) impressed....
and i'm sick of these companies claiming things like "94mpg" when really its only because the electric motor is doing the work. build me a car that runs on petrol fuel ONLY, and gets 90mpg, and then i'll be impressed. and ~$40k price tag!???!! W T F !??!?! who can afford that?!

the way things are now, nothing prevents a company from making a 99% electric, 1% gasoline powered car, and saying it gets 900000mpg. thats just dumb.

Again, you have a completely incorrect idea of how fuel economy numbers for hybrids and EVs work. The electricity used to charge the battery and power the electric motor is not ignored. It's converted into an equivalent amount of gasoline (based on the amount of potential energy) and then compared to how far that amount of energy will propel the car. The reason that the economy numbers for EVs are so outstanding is that an electric motor is many times more efficient at converting energy to forward motion then an ICE. For example, the Nissan Leaf is a pure EV, does not use one drop of gas. It doesn't get 'infinite MPG,' as you imply... it gets the equivalent of 99MPG. That is, the amount of energy in one gallon of gas, converted to electricity, will allow you to drive that car 99 miles.
 
Hmm. The Volt's $32K price after the rebate is too much. Doesn't offset the fuel savings in any reasonable amount of time. I'll wait.

What's your time worth? If I had a Volt as my commuter, I'd probably only have to get gas for it once every 2-3 months. Compared to once a week for me now.

Sometimes I see the people actually waiting in line 10 deep to fuel up at Costco.

I sure as hell don't get Costco gas, but it still is 5-10 minutes out of my week everytime to gemo to Chevron.
 
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I like the Volt a lot, but it would have to be cheaper than it is, even after rebates, for me to buy one. But I love seeing more hybrids on the road because anything that lowers demand for gasoline is a good thing for those of us still wanting to stay ICE.
 
I'd like to see a long term report from Berto on this.

I'd think after driving a CTS-V, it's not going to be the creature comforts you're going to miss!
 
Again, you have a completely incorrect idea of how fuel economy numbers for hybrids and EVs work. The electricity used to charge the battery and power the electric motor is not ignored. It's converted into an equivalent amount of gasoline (based on the amount of potential energy) and then compared to how far that amount of energy will propel the car. The reason that the economy numbers for EVs are so outstanding is that an electric motor is many times more efficient at converting energy to forward motion then an ICE. For example, the Nissan Leaf is a pure EV, does not use one drop of gas. It doesn't get 'infinite MPG,' as you imply... it gets the equivalent of 99MPG. That is, the amount of energy in one gallon of gas, converted to electricity, will allow you to drive that car 99 miles.

agreed and understood, but the numbers are very deceiving. and there is no relation made to how much pollution is created from producing that electric power, nor any sort of relation made to the enviornmental impact of the batteries used.

ICE are quite INefficient. I forgot how efficient they *generally* are at producting the maximal possible power from a gallon of gas, but IIRC its close to 50%, and IIRC, worse. so yes, there is a lot to be gained by using electric power instead of gasoline, as electric power is *generally* produced more cleanly at the power plant - than an ICE could ever dream of. :thumbup


I just wish there were some type of number put on these new hybrids that shows their REAL, OVERALL enviornmental impact. I read somewhere that a new Prius is about as good for the enviornment as a Humvee H2 - in the long run. (batteries and other special non-goodie-enviornmental bits hold the prius back). so we gotta see that we are still hurting the earth, hybrid or not.

and again, the only way out of the problem is to realize that it takes ENEGRY (gasoline or electric) to move a vehicle. a big 3000lb american vehicle is gonna take more ENEGRY to move, than a small, sub 2000lb economic commuter type car. It SICKENS ME that there really are no new cars on the market that are built along this line of thought. I was SOOOO excited with Fiat came to the USA, i thought "finally a small, light weight car, that thing has GOT to get like 70MPG at least" .... boy was i wrong... thanx to the airbags, heated seats, automatic cock stroker as previously mentioned, its small - but heavy - and hence not what I wish it was.

The Honda Insight was the closest thing in the recent future, but even it is now close to a 10 year old car. yea its still a hybrid, but its a small, lightweight, minimalistic car, meant for economy, getting from A to be w/o thrills, just a commuter that got SUPURB mileage. i dont see anything comparable in the 2013 line up.... :thumbdown

We need to move to smaller vehicles, that have LESS.... America.... having less.... i kno.... :cry :laughing


*ICE: internal combustion engine for you noobs
 
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Charlie you got the BRZ/FRS at 2760 lbs
MX-5 2447
the new insight is 2730lbs
My 95 civic at 2178-2392 depending on options.
Todays cars are weight down by safety features more then comfort stuff I suspect.
 
What else can you buy for 32K that's more impressive? I'm guessing a bone-stock TL or G37 maybe.......maybe. And even if so, they wouldn't have as many features or as much low-end torque.

I've driven a volt and a G37, and if at some point in the RPM range the volt actually has more torque than the G37, it certainly doesn't feel like it. The volt is an econo-car through and through.
 
It's about 12-14 hours to full charge with 120v. 240v is drastically less. Something like 4-6 hours.

Berto...what 240v charger did they give you for free? The Voltec branded one or something else

Rob, they don't have a free program anymore in CA, so we went to PA with them, where the eco-blink charger is free...something like a $1500 value + $400 towards install. Becoming an SPX certified installer means we save the $400 too...

Different states have different rebate programs Raul. If you can get one through the CO rebate, that's $6K plus the federal credit everyone gets of $7500. In PA, the rebate is $3500. Ca's is $1500, but you also get the green carpool sticker until 2016.

The car's onboard charger can be set to upcharge at 12amps, but always defaults to 8 amps. It's the reason I'm getting 240V at the office and my house.

Does the Pigs, Goats & Extortionests give you a lower rate to charge it at home? If not it would just add to the highest rate on my bill. If they do how is it calculated?

There's a special E-9 rate that's for PEV's through PGE.

Now I've never owned a FWD car. Nothing with less than a V6. I love power and going fast. But what the hell good is a supercar just trudging along at 25mph in heavy traffic? It's work having to row that six speed back and forth and work the clutch twenty thousand times in an hour. It's also a liability. Constantly wondering if this guy behind me sees we all came to a stop suddenly and doesn't rear end me. That piece of shit uncovered gravel hauler is gonna cause a chip in my $2000 windshield. And burning through $70 a week of 91 octane just to go no faster than some goon in a barely running beater car. So fuck it. I want a not so very fast commuter car. And if it's gonna be a commuter, then I want maximum mileage. But I don't want to be stranded if I should try running some errands and tacking on a few more miles on the way home. So a plug in car like the Volt is pretty damn perfect.

That's what I came up with too, Rob...I mean I've owned the cool stuff, CTS-V, Corvette, Porsche Turbo, Viper, Lightning, Cobra, etc..and it's always the same thing my dad always says "you can't use the performance on the street"...or better said, it's very hard to find places to take advantage of the performance. Besides, the savings in gas would PAY for you to have that Vette, CTS-V, etc and not have to commute in it and let it get fucked up. We still have plenty of high HP stuff, so it's not the end of the world. It's just a totally new world I never experienced in the Prius I had.

If you factor in price, isn't the standard Prius still way cheaper to own?

The Volt is a far nicer looking car though.

0306_chevy-volt-624x381.jpg

No, not really. A freind just bought a Prius, loaded up. Paid $28K. The Volt is about $30K in CA, loaded, but at 0%. Mind you, if it was a used Prius near $10K...that can't be beat. But I wanted something more luxo...

Hmm. The Volt's $32K price after the rebate is too much. Doesn't offset the fuel savings in any reasonable amount of time. I'll wait.

My fuel bill was $6500 last year. That's $9K of standard income to pay that bill. The Volt, at even 70MPG, pays off pretty darn quick at that.
 
so how long does the battery last??

when the battery goes, destroying the resale value of the car after some number of years or offseting everything you "saved" by not purchasing gas cant be good for the 'economy' of the car. im skeptical.
 
so how long does the battery last??

when the battery goes, destroying the resale value of the car after some number of years or offseting everything you "saved" by not purchasing gas cant be good for the 'economy' of the car. im skeptical.

not sure if there is info for the volt on that yet. As for the Prius
2001-2003 Toyota Prius (1st generation) - $3,649 minus $1,350 "core credit"
2004-2008 Toyota Prius (2nd generation) - $3,649 minus $1,350 "core credit"
2009-present Toyota Prius (3rd generation) - $3,939 minus $1,350 "core credit"
 
I love subsidizing other people's cars with my tax dollars!

I love using natural gas (to generate electricity) instead of regular gasoline!
 
Charlie you got the BRZ/FRS at 2760 lbs
MX-5 2447
the new insight is 2730lb
My 95 civic at 2178-2392 depending on options.
Todays cars are weight down by safety features more then comfort stuff I suspect.

That is why I don't want to sell my 2000 Insight. Its 1800 lb and mass is the most important variable for efficiency. Even with the hybrid system gutted, I would still get 60 MPG. I got 64 MPG for the 50,000 miles I have owed it. FYI, todays EPA rating is ~55 MPG combined.

I too like the idea of light, simple cars, but they probably will not sell enough. The Nissan Leaf sold more cars in the first year then Honda sold first generation Insight in 6 years of production. Small and two doors is a killer. 4 doors or 4 seats is heavy. 3 wheelers don't require crash testing and air bags, but all the start ups have gone out of business.
 
I've driven a volt and a G37, and if at some point in the RPM range the volt actually has more torque than the G37, it certainly doesn't feel like it. The volt is an econo-car through and through.

How about the entire range?

G37 has 269ft lbs at 5200rpm.

Volt has 273ft lbs...period.


Now the G37 has twice the horsepower. That damn sure is gonna make it a faster car than the Volt.

Nobody expects the Volt to blow the doors off a new 5.0 Mustang. But the point is that it's shockingly quick for what it is. Punch the go pedal in a Prius, and you get the expected result...yawn. Do that in the Volt and you'll be impressed with how quick it can get up to freeway speed.
 
with my civic I get a steady 36 mpg in the city no matter how I drive and low 40's on the freeway. The car has a 12 gal tank and I have made it from Dublin to the Anaheim exit right before the angels stadium on one tank of gas.
 
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not sure if there is info for the volt on that yet. As for the Prius
2001-2003 Toyota Prius (1st generation) - $3,649 minus $1,350 "core credit"
2004-2008 Toyota Prius (2nd generation) - $3,649 minus $1,350 "core credit"
2009-present Toyota Prius (3rd generation) - $3,939 minus $1,350 "core credit"

u kno, thats not as bad as i thought it would be. according to Holeshot's numbers, thats only 1yrs worth of gas-savings. even if the Volt is 2x the price, its not bad.

I love subsidizing other people's cars with my tax dollars!

ya it sux, technology that isnt profitable but is "good for everyone" often needs help.

of course, Toyota would prob still be profitable w/ their hybrids/plug-ins without any tax credit.

I love using natural gas (to generate electricity) instead of regular gasoline!

actually, im pretty sure energy density efficiency is greater for electricity from NG in an electric car than gasoline in a ICE.
 
Charlie you got the BRZ/FRS at 2760 lbs
MX-5 2447
the new insight is 2730lbs
My 95 civic at 2178-2392 depending on options.
Todays cars are weight down by safety features more then comfort stuff I suspect.


the few sources i've looked at say:
2370lbs for a 2000 civic HX

http://autos.aol.com/cars-Honda-Civic-2000/specs/
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2000/features-specs.html?style=3254
we wont get into the fact that my civic weighs a good 150lbs less than that.... :teeth

but you are right, its the safety features as much as the comfort stuff that is in the way of these newer cars getting better MPG. i wish they'd make a car that has LESS safety, and less features - less weight, better MPG.

we all ride motorcycles here (ok, well most of us), I dont think I speak for just myself when I say that being surrounded by a cage of metal is more safety than i'm used to :)
 
Cars have had to get heavier to pass crash standards. I think I heard the engineers say that the outgoing C6 Corvette would not pass upcoming crash standards. Leads me to believe that despite the aluminum frame and carbon body parts, the new C7 Corvette may not weigh any less than the car it replaces.
 
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