Bike has trouble starting after getting gas, not sure what the issue is

[slavandar]

Hello all. I've been riding a 2012 Honda Shadow Phantom daily for a few months now, haven't had any problems with it. About 3 weeks ago it has some trouble starting up in the morning (not very cold out, definitely warmer than some other days when it did start). It took about a minute of holding down the starter button to get the engine to turn over. Same thing happens a week later and I notice that it seems to be happening the morning after I fill up my gas tank, so I take it to a repair shop out here and they look at it, replace a spark plug cap and do an oil change, and tell me I'm probably good to go, since they can't find anything wrong with it.

I filled up the tank this morning, stopped to grab a burrito and again same problem. Engine won't turn over (Lights all come on and it definitely is TRYING to turn over) and it takes about a minute or two of holding down the starter button to get it going. I'm not sure what the problem could be, and I'm reluctant to take it back to the dealership since I'm not as well versed in motorcycle engine issues as I am (barely) in car related issues, and don't want to get screwed over. Has anyone had a similar problem, or heard of something like this? Anything I can do on my own to maybe get it running smoothly again?

TL;DR: Engine takes a few minutes to turn over after filling the tank up with gas, not right after filling up but usually a few hours after or the next morning.

 

[Maddevill]

Once again let's be clear. The motor is not having a problem TURNING OVER, it's having a problem STARTING. Yes? The one thing I can think of is you are getting gas into the charcoal canister when you fill up the tank. Try not filling the tank to the top and see if the problem goes away. When the canister has gas in it, it creates a mega rich fuel mixture.

 

[slavandar]

Once again let's be clear. The motor is not having a problem TURNING OVER, it's having a problem STARTING. Yes? The one thing I can think of is you are getting gas into the charcoal canister when you fill up the tank. Try not filling the tank to the top and see if the problem goes away. When the canister has gas in it, it creates a mega rich fuel mixture.

Sorry, my terminology might be off. It is having trouble starting. It will slowly crank for a few seconds, then the cranking sounds speed up, then it starts. This all occurs while I hold down the starter button.

 

[mototireguy]

#1 - Check that the battery terminal screws are snug.

#2 - What is the battery voltage key-off?

#3 - What is the battery voltage key-on?

#4 - What is the battery voltage bike running low-mid rpms?

Please report back with what you find. If you don't know how or don't have multimeter then ask/beg/pay someone to check these items for you.

 

[MSFIT]

Spark, air, and fuel. That's all you need, and it sounds like you eventually get it all.

When you turn the key on, the fuel pump should prime and you should be able to hear the wine.

When you're hitting the starter, is that kick stand up and clutch pulled in and bike out of gear?

Does rocking it side to side, or turning the bars one way or the other have an impact on it starting or not?

 

[Darkness!]

The first thing I would recommend checking is your battery. Check the voltage in the morning. How old is it? Do you keep it on a tender at all? How often and how far do you ride the bike? Often multiple 5-10 minute or short distance rides will slowly cause the battery to lose it's standing charge. With such short rides, the battery never gets a chance to fully re-charge itself to where it was when you started it. Also check the battery terminals, are they good an tight? Next thing is the charging system. If you need help PM me. I'm in El Cerrito and can help you out.

Often, the charcoal canister of the emissions system on your bike can become overfilled and get clogged or hydro locked. Which means that the liquid gas can't push through the overly saturated charcoal canister fast enough.

The other possibilities are that your starter motor or the ignition relay is going out. get that checked out.

Edit: I see people already mentioned the battery, there might possibly be tank venting issues as well but that's distant third or fourth thing to check...

 

[slavandar]

Spark, air, and fuel. That's all you need, and it sounds like you eventually get it all.

When you turn the key on, the fuel pump should prime and you should be able to hear the wine.

When you're hitting the starter, is that kick stand up and clutch pulled in and bike out of gear?

Does rocking it side to side, or turning the bars one way or the other have an impact on it starting or not?

1) I do hear the wine, and usually wait until it's finished before attempting to start

2) Two part answer: A) I will usually start my bike in neutral with the stand down, clutch out, letting it "warm up" while I get my gloves and helmet on in the morning and evening. B) Other times I bring up the kickstand, clutch in and put it in first, then try to start. For both of these scenarios, I have had the same starting issue.

3) I've tried rocking it, and it will still take several attempts to start. Additionally have tried kickstand back down, kill switch off and on a few times, and repeat the start up sequence according to 2)B).

 

[slavandar]

The first thing I would recommend checking is your battery. Check the voltage in the morning. How old is it? Do you keep it on a tender at all? How often and how far do you ride the bike? Often multiple 5-10 minute or short distance rides will slowly cause the battery to lose it's standing charge. With such short rides, the battery never gets a chance to fully re-charge itself to where it was when you started it. Also check the battery terminals, are they good an tight? Next thing is the charging system. If you need help PM me. I'm in El Cerrito and can help you out.

Often, the charcoal canister of the emissions system on your bike can become overfilled and get clogged or hydro locked. Which means that the liquid gas can't push through the overly saturated charcoal canister fast enough.

The other possibilities are that your starter motor or the ignition relay is going out. get that checked out.

Edit: I see people already mentioned the battery, there might possibly be tank venting issues as well but that's distant third or fourth thing to check...

I commute back and forth from Richmond to SF daily. About 30 minutes each way depending on traffic/splitting. Additionally I'll go for short rides on the weekends when I have to run errands. I'll check the battery when I get a chance, although I took it to a repair shop last Saturday and I assume they gave the battery a look and didn't find anything.

From what I'm reading here, on reddit, and on other forums when searching this problem, people are saying it's a charcoal filter issue. I'm supposed to bring it back to the shop this Saturday but if that doesn't solve the problem then I'm all for teaming up with you and seeing what's up.

 

[slavandar]

#1 - Check that the battery terminal screws are snug.

#2 - What is the battery voltage key-off?

#3 - What is the battery voltage key-on?

#4 - What is the battery voltage bike running low-mid rpms?

Please report back with what you find. If you don't know how or don't have multimeter then ask/beg/pay someone to check these items for you.

I don't have a meter so I'll ask around and see if I can get one, then check these steps. Thanks!

 

[ratsblast]

Almost sounds like clutch plates are sticking, put bike in gear not running and rock it back and forth. If starter engages but engine doesn't turn over likely issue.

 

[DTM74]

Sounds like it's the EVAP (charcoal) Canister. I'd remove it.

 

[Darkness!]

I commute back and forth from Richmond to SF daily. About 30 minutes each way depending on traffic/splitting. Additionally I'll go for short rides on the weekends when I have to run errands. I'll check the battery when I get a chance, although I took it to a repair shop last Saturday and I assume they gave the battery a look and didn't find anything.

From what I'm reading here, on reddit, and on other forums when searching this problem, people are saying it's a charcoal filter issue. I'm supposed to bring it back to the shop this Saturday but if that doesn't solve the problem then I'm all for teaming up with you and seeing what's up.

I wouldn't get too fixated on thinking its the charcoal canister issue. Like I said, in general, that's a distant third or fourth to looking first at the battery, then the starter circuit (which includes the starter relay and the starter motor I mentioned) then the ignition, air and THEN the fuel system which contains the charcoal canister people have mentioned...at least that's the progression I looked at when I was a moto tech. Other people have slightly different approaches, but the number one thing to check for first is usually a weak or failing battery.

Edit:

1. Battery voltage, standing (no key, everything off) then key on, then while starting.
2. Charging system voltage (bike running at around 3500-4000 rpm) should be 13.8 to 14.4-ish volts give or take depending on the OEM spec. 15.0 volts is generally too high and can fry your battery cells
3. Check for vacuum leaks related both to air and fuel delivery
4. Starter and ignition circuits
5. Check charcoal canister for possible flow issues

 

[motomania2007]

Everything you describe screams at a failing battery and/or a failing charging system.

Go to harbor freight and BUY a voltmeter it is about $7. You should have one anyway.

Your charcoal canister USUALLY is not an issue and you can eliminate it easily by leaving the gas cap open.

The reason the charcoal canister MIGHT be an issue is because a blocked charcoal canister can block the vent of the tank, then not allowing fuel to flow because air can't get into the tank as the fuel level drops. This is not an issue immediately after filling and closing the tank because the fuel level has not dropped and will not drop until you have been riding for several minutes.

Again, the easiest way to eliminate the charcoal canister as the culprit is to open the gas cap. If the gas cap is open, air can come in through the gas cap and the charcoal canister issue is completely bypassed.

Test your battery with the key off, with the key on and the headlight on and report back the voltages you see in those conditions. While you are in there, inspect all the battery terminals for tight connection and no corrosion. There are 6 terminals to check. Just follow the heavy battery cables from the battery to the engine block, to the starter relay and to the starter.

My bet is a weak battery. The weak battery may be caused by a poor charging system or just a worn out battery as they do die eventually.

Do not bet that the mechanic tested the battery. Never assume anything.

 

[Maddevill]

He said the motor turns over so I doubt it's a starter motor or relay issue. Although a weak battery can make hard starting on some bikes due to draw of the starter from the FI system.

 

[Darkness!]

Everything you describe screams at a failing battery and/or a failing charging system.

Go to harbor freight and BUY a voltmeter it is about $7. You should have one anyway.

Your charcoal canister USUALLY is not an issue and you can eliminate it easily by leaving the gas cap open.

The reason the charcoal canister MIGHT be an issue is because a blocked charcoal canister can block the vent of the tank, then not allowing fuel to flow because air can't get into the tank as the fuel level drops. This is not an issue immediately after filling and closing the tank because the fuel level has not dropped and will not drop until you have been riding for several minutes.

Again, the easiest way to eliminate the charcoal canister as the culprit is to open the gas cap. If the gas cap is open, air can come in through the gas cap and the charcoal canister issue is completely bypassed.

Test your battery with the key off, with the key on and the headlight on and report back the voltages you see in those conditions. While you are in there, inspect all the battery terminals for tight connection and no corrosion. There are 6 terminals to check. Just follow the heavy battery cables from the battery to the engine block, to the starter relay and to the starter.

My bet is a weak battery. The weak battery may be caused by a poor charging system or just a worn out battery as they do die eventually.

Do not bet that the mechanic tested the battery. Never assume anything.

Excellent explanation of the evap (charcoal) canister issue.

 

[Honey Badger]

Sounds like you're mostly having hot start issues? Maybe not by your edit. None the less:

If that's the case, have you had the valve clearances checked?

My first bike started having hot start issues - people had me looking at all kinds of crap, troubleshooting a bunch of stuff, etc. Turned out it was just over due for valves

 

[Busy Little Shop]

Start with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To
determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

 

[slavandar]

Thanks guys, I'm gonna check the battery and starter at a friends house Friday after work since he has a meter and we can check the voltages. Appreciate all the help and diagnoses!

 

[Lex Talionis]

Start with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To
determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

Measure terminal voltage with engine off and lights on, to remove the surface charge seen directly after charging the battery by use of an external charger or having just run the bike - this provides an indication of the true battery potential.

Lex

 

[madsen203]

Use spare key to start bike with gas tank open? Maybe a fueling issue which would be as said about charcoal canister or vac lines.