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bitcoins

I agree with everything Anthony said. Especially when he talks about Amazon and the returns that it has provided at different stages of its growth. The only thing I will add is that this is price exploration of a new asset class and when someone asks "when does it stop going up and stabilize"? My answer is that it stops going up in fiat value when the FED stops printing money. As long as this is happening you will see people looking for a place to store there hard earned value. We want something that is not controlled by those that are doing the devaluing. You will see a time, very soon, when all of the banks accept it and will offer either bitcoin services, investment vehicles, or bitcoin to their customers. Just like JPMorgan, that talked all kinds of shit about bitcoin in 2017 then turned around and bought a bunch of bitcoin XBT shares otherwise known as exchange traded notes or etn's that weekend. These ass holes are fucking crooks. I hope Gary Gensler crushes these criminals. He stated a few weeks ago when he was being grilled on Capital Hill that he was looking at why they prosecute small businesses for fraud but previous SEC officials never go after the big banks. He said thats about to change when he is in charge. He is very bitcoin friendly. He taught bitcoin and blockchain tech for the last few years at MIT. Hes now Bidens pick to head the SEC.

Now you have banks like Duetsche Bank saying that you cannot ignore bitcoin anymore. You have publicly traded multi billion dollar companies putting entire treasuries into bitcoin to fight against inflation. Everyone needs to wake up and realize whats happening. Never in American history has so much money been printed without backing (40% in the last 12 months). We are seeing the death of American money being used as a world reserve currency. In our lives you will see Nation states use bitcoin as that reserve currency.
 
panthera said:
.... Never in American history has so much money been printed without backing (40% in the last 12 months). We are seeing the death of American money being used as a world reserve currency. In our lives you will see Nation states use bitcoin as that reserve currency.
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I think a bitcoin standard (or reserve currency) would suffer the same fate as the gold standard did, as both are in limited supply. See:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/04/27/135604828/why-we-left-the-gold-standard

Ending with:

Going off the gold standard gave the government new tools to steer the economy. If you're not tied to gold, you can adjust the amount of money in the economy if you need to. You can adjust interest rates.

Almost all economists agree, the system we have today is better than the gold standard. Not perfect, but much better.
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Perhaps that assertion has not aged well over 10 years. :nchantr
 
Also, I'm wondering if the growth of the bitcoin blockchain is sustainable. In 2014 it reached 20 GB. Now it's over 300 GB and will surely soon be in the terabytes. Transaction clearing times are already a problem... what will happen to them in 5-10 years?
 
rodr said:
Also, I'm wondering if the growth of the bitcoin blockchain is sustainable. In 2014 it reached 20 GB. Now it's over 300 GB and will surely soon be in the terabytes. Transaction clearing times are already a problem... what will happen to them in 5-10 years?
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We will run out of power.....
 
rodr said:
as both are in limited supply.
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Well this is not quite true. There is still gold in the ground and we do not know how much. Plus bitcoin has the same characteristics of gold but is not physical. It is more easily transported, much easier to divide. Its fungible, programmable, and decentralized. There is no attack vector, no CEO, no company, no one can shut down the system.

rodr said:
Also, I'm wondering if the growth of the bitcoin blockchain is sustainable. In 2014 it reached 20 GB. Now it's over 300 GB and will surely soon be in the terabytes. Transaction clearing times are already a problem... what will happen to them in 5-10 years?
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Not sure what you are asking or what the issue is. I run a bitcoin full node. Its a device that runs a full copy of the blockchain and I can instantly send or receive bitcoin with instant settlement. Instant, no wait time. I can send 1000 transactions for one dollar. The one terabyte drive it has is at probably 333GB now. That is a seagate drive and it is the size of a silver dollar. As technology grows the physical hardware will be smaller. Also you dont need a full copy of the blockchain. You can just have the latest block and you are all good. The latest block will contain a hash of the previous block. Each block is 1 MB so storage is not a problem if thats what you are asking. For more technical info you can go here: https://mempool.space/ for blocks, block times, fees, number of tx per block etc..

Rodr: its great that you are asking questions and spending the time to engage in thoughtful conversation. I can direct you to the information that you seek. I am not a expert by any means and anything that I say should be looked into for factualness. In the bitcoin world we live by: "Don't Trust, Verify".

buellistic said:
We will run out of power.....
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This is simply a myth. See the link Previously posted about bitcoin myths.
Then there is this:https://u.today/forget-bitcoin-christmas-lights-in-us-spend-more-electricity-than-countries

So is everyone gonna stop putting up Xmas lights. What about Amazons Web Service? How much energy does that use? We could talk about how much energy banks use? How much energy does gold mining use? How much does that destroy the environment? At least with bitcoin mining you can use it to produce more than just bitcoin:https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/cry...ng-tomatoes-with-heat-from-his-computers.html
 
I've noticed that the people who sing the loudest praise of bitcoins and who attack others who speak of caution are heavily invested in bitcoins and therefore are acting in self-interest to promote them. Without all of the people promoting it, bitcoin value would be unsustainable. :laughing
 
I've noticed that the people who have the most doubt about bitcoin and who attack others who speak positive, are not invested in bitcoin and therefore are acting in self-interest to denounce them. Without suckers willing to invest in traditional markets that are manipulated, they would be unsustainable.

I get that you don't agree. How many times do you have to come in here and show your hand? Please stop mudding up the thread. Let those that want info to feel free to chime in. If you have questions then please contribute to the discussion. If not, go start a bitcoin hate thread.
 
The two most interesting points I've heard so far are:

1. 40% of current dollars in circulation (printed or digital) have been produced in the last 12 months.

3. Large money managers, corporations, and financial institutions are getting into bitcoin. There exists a finite number of bitcoins. What happens to the price when someone invests 10x Tesla's $1.5b???
 
panthera said:
I've noticed that the people who have the most doubt about bitcoin and who attack others who speak positive, are not invested in bitcoin and therefore are acting in self-interest to denounce them. Without suckers willing to invest in traditional markets that are manipulated, they would be unsustainable.

I get that you don't agree. How many times do you have to come in here and show your hand? Please stop mudding up the thread. Let those that want info to feel free to chime in. If you have questions then please contribute to the discussion. If not, go start a bitcoin hate thread.
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Bro, the thread is just titled bitcoins :laughing

I think that leaves the door open for ANY discussion about bitcoin.
 
chrisweir.com said:
The two most interesting points I've heard so far are:

1. 40% of current dollars in circulation (printed or digital) have been produced in the last 12 months.

3. Large money managers, corporations, and financial institutions are getting into bitcoin. There exists a finite number of bitcoins. What happens to the price when someone invests 10x Tesla's $1.5b???
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The highest number I could find is between 18 and 24% Nowhere close to 40%
 
Ab- fair enough. He has no knowledge as to what he is speaking about. It just gets old but you are right.

Chris- that is what folks should be seeing and asking themselves . Why are these massive companies shifting away from the US dollar as their reserve asset? The rabbit hole is deep and I think there is solace in the systems that they are used to. Remember that when the automobile was invented some said there was no need because we already had horses. Look at where we are now. What about airplanes? What about the personal computer? People are afraid of new technology.
 
panthera said:
Well this is not quite true. There is still gold in the ground and we do not know how much.
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For what it's worth I was reading Newmont's annual report yesterday. They are the largest gold miner in the world and are estimating 94.2 million ounces still in the ground at their sites, and at current mining rates this would last 15-20 years.

Not sure what you are asking or what the issue is. I run a bitcoin full node. Its a device that runs a full copy of the blockchain and I can instantly send or receive bitcoin with instant settlement. Instant, no wait time. I can send 1000 transactions for one dollar. The one terabyte drive it has is at probably 333GB now. That is a seagate drive and it is the size of a silver dollar. As technology grows the physical hardware will be smaller. Also you dont need a full copy of the blockchain. You can just have the latest block and you are all good. The latest block will contain a hash of the previous block. Each block is 1 MB so storage is not a problem if thats what you are asking. For more technical info you can go here: https://mempool.space/ for blocks, block times, fees, number of tx per block etc..
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Thanks. My knowledge of this is minimal and I appreciate your willingness to explain things.

I was seeing articles like this one which says in part:

a Bitcoin transaction generally needs 6 confirmations from miners before it’s processed. The average time it takes to mine a block is 10 minutes, so you would expect a transaction to take around an hour on average.

However, the recent popularity boom of Bitcoin has caused congestion on the network. The average time for one confirmation has recently ranged anywhere from 30 minutes to over 16 hours in extreme cases.
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It's a long explanation, but the "six confirmation block" thing is a protection against double spending, not a validation thing. Double spending attacks are when you tell one part of the Bitcoin network one thing and another something different- for instance, telling 49% of it "I send @rodr a bitcoin" and telling 51% "I didn't send any bitcoin." If the node you ask for processing is in the 49%, they see the transaction and think it's valid; if it's in the 51%; they don't. So, a retailer could be using a service for payment that is in the 49%, check their ledger in the blockchain, see your transaction, consider your payment settled, and hand you your goods, only to have the network go "No, 51% of us think that money wasn't sent"- and have the blockchain revert the transaction by "accepting" the 51%'s block as valid- and throwing away the 49%'s block. In bitcoin- whichever version of the blockchain has the largest share of compute power behind it wins- so one block is easy enough to fake- you just have to send two transactions to two different nodes.

When that second block is mined, though, you have to keep that 49% on the fake block you started with- and keep it mining a third block on that fake path- basically convincing 49% of the network to ignore the rest of the world telling it "hey, we have more valid blocks." That's highly unlikely- and for each additional block it becomes even more unlikely that you could either control enough mining power yourself, or fake out enough miners using network isolation techniques, etc (imagine a hacker disconnecting Asia, Europe, and North America- isolating them- and then making a fake-spend attack against one- it could be worth hundreds of billions if executed correctly) to actually make it work for six blocks deep.

This (cryptographic integrity) is also how the blockchain is easily validated back to block 0 in the chain- each block contains part of the previously found block, and they're all encrypted- so if you want to change a transaction a few blocks back- you have to re-compute all of the very, very difficult encryption operations against all of the blocks between then and now- and then convince the network your versions of these blocks are more valid than theirs.

I'm sure this is a poor explanation which will create more questions than answers but it's a start.
 
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What Cheez is referring to as the double spend attack is also called the Byzantine Generals Problem. Here is a short easy to follow video that sums up quite a bit. https://youtu.be/dfsRQyYXOsQ

There are actually 2 parts to Bitcoin. 1) you have the asset everyone calls Bitcoin. 2) you have the network that is the decentralized ledger.
 
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You can now buy a Tesla with your bitcoin.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status...musk2Fstatus2F1374619379929772034widget=Tweet

And he will not be converting any bitcoin used to purchase a Tesla into traditional fiat currency. I hope those of you who are interested in this new asset class are paying attention. Soon having one bitcoin is going to be out of reach for 95% of the population. Not financial advice but my game plan has always been to acquire more daily. I wont be using mine to buy any cars unless we are at 1 million or more. At that point almost everyone will accept it.
 
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PayPal now is allowing you to pay merchants in bitcoin.
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/0a82f4f0-0de0-323e-af29-d678f61ee7a2/bitcoin-climbs-as-paypal.html

Visa now is integrating USDC into its platform.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-breaks-near-58k-visa-104029258.html

I hesitate posting in the traditional investing thread because of the vitriol of some that post there. It is clear the traditional system has systemic problems that will never be fixed. If you want a way to protect your hard earned value I highly recommend educating yourself.
If anyone wants an invite to clubhouse let me know. I have a fee invites left for those that are interested. Need an iPhone right now though as its not on android yet.
 
panthera said:
PayPal now is allowing you to pay merchants in bitcoin.
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/0a82f4f0-0de0-323e-af29-d678f61ee7a2/bitcoin-climbs-as-paypal.html

Visa now is integrating USDC into its platform.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-breaks-near-58k-visa-104029258.html

I hesitate posting in the traditional investing thread because of the vitriol of some that post there. It is clear the traditional system has systemic problems that will never be fixed. If you want a way to protect your hard earned value I highly recommend educating yourself.
If anyone wants an invite to clubhouse let me know. I have a fee invites left for those that are interested. Need an iPhone right now though as its not on android yet.
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So would you say when Roy Dalio comes out and suggests the state (US) will make coin illegal “like they did with private gold to prevent a parallel monetary system” it’s last gasp dollar BS?
 
You have to look at what Ray actually said and how the media is spinning what he said. Here he is putting out a statement on his website. He wanted to correct the spin from the media:https://www.bridgewater.com/research-and-insights/our-thoughts-on-bitcoin

From the first paragraph:
"I am finding that those who want to promote Bitcoin (which is most people) are characterizing it one way while those who are against it (which are a few scared souls cowering in a corner) are characterizing it another way."


The main slogan in the Bitcoin community is: Don't Trust Verify.

Bridgewater will be one of the next public companies to buy bitcoin.
 
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My brother has never been successful at anything in his life except for jumping on the bitcoin bandwagon. He berates me and my dad for not investing. He claims it will double this year. He wants to live in a storage unit so he can put more money to bitcoin. I don't offer him unsolicited advice (he never asks), and I am being pretty patient but if he's right it's not because he's a genius and if he's wrong it's not because he's an idiot.
 
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