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Can't set sag

dravnx

dravnx

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Location
santa rosa, ca
Moto(s)
Kawi 1400GTR '12
R1200RS '18
Name
Jeff
BARF perks
AMA #3018349
I just picked up a 2017 DL650. The PO had Andreani cartridges installed. The springs are .88 on the compression side and .93 on the rebound side. The problem is I can only get 25mm of sag with the preload adjusters all the way out. He spec'd a rider weight of 200lbs which is the same as me. The carts came with the springs. The Racetech spring calculator specs .95 springs.
Any suggestions?
 
I've had to cut my own spring spacers on a number racetech spring applications. Does this application use a spacer? If so, perhaps the previous owner didn't cut them down to the proper length as instructed and they are too long which adds too much preload from the start (before even using the fork preloader.)

I'm not familiar with the Vstrom, this is just from my general amateur knowledge of setting up my bikes.

Is there any free sag? Generally when someone adds too much preload to compensate for a spring that's too soft, you lose free sag which is just as important as the race sag (rider on.)

Anyways, open it up and see if its using a spring spacer.
 
The Vstroms have Showa upright dampening rod forks. Very low tech. I have zero knowledge about cartridge forks or cartridge upgrade kits.
 
It can be hard to get accurate sag measurements on the front due to the angle and stiction. How are you measuring?

On my DL650 I am running .95 springs and I am just under 200 with gear. It is a tad stiff but works since I put a stiffer shock and shorter links. I think .90's would be perfect for a stock shock. With your spring rate numbers I think you are in the ballpark and I would not worry about getting an exact sag figure.

CJ might be on the right track about having too much 'installed preload". Those andreani cartridges might have an adjustable spring perch internally that you can adjust.

Personally I gave up on getting exact sag numbers especially on the fork. Get in the ballpark (that is, have some small amount of sag with the bike's weight only, and more when you sit on it), make sure your spring rates are in a practical range, and then adjust it from there until your geometry feels right. The rear is much easier to achieve around 30% sag.

Check this out at around the 1:20 mark. He basically says he can't measure sag accurately and to use a zip tie instead.
[youtube]dvGGvKpg4OA[/youtube]
 
I've done the measure technique and the zip tie technique. both come up with 20 mm of sag. The rear is at 40 mm of sag, which is right where it should be.
Static sag is 29 mm front and 14 mm rear
 
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing and I understand (not talking down, just want to make sure we are talking the same language.)

Free sag is the bike settling on its own from fully extended with out you on the bike. Static (or race in dirt bike language) is with you on the bike and how much is settles from from fully extended.

Both measurements are from fully extended.

Your problem as I understood is with the preload adjusters completely out (ie least amount of preload applied by adjusters), you weren't able to get enough static sag with you on the bike. Originally stated at 25mm in first post and now 29mm in the last. You are looking for more sag.

If you are trying to get more static sag:

A) your springs are too stiff (which doesnt appear to be the case based on the rates you mentioned in the first post.) OR

B) there is additional preload being applied by the spring spacer inside the fork.

Watch the video below at 2:35 and you will see what I am talking about. That is the preload or spring spacer (basically a tube between your spring and the external preload adjuster.) As these forks have been modified and aftermarket springs have been added, its very possible that this spacer has been either modified or a different one used.

As mentioned early, many Racetech applications comes with new tube spring spacers that you cut down to your required length.

My very strong guess is your spacer is a tad too long which is adding just a bit more preload than you require without even using the external adjusters.

If you want more static sag using the springs installed, cut the spacer down.

Not sure why whomever modified the forks used two spring rates, but if my math is right that works out to a combined effective rate of .905 which should be well within the range you are looking for. In my experience, Racetech's calculator has always been a bit high with my applications when discussing with Pro's about it. Even if not in your case, .05 difference shouldnt be a significant difference unless you are campaigning the DL in an AFM race. :laughing :thumbup

Quick edit for clarification: Regardless of the aftermarket cartridges fitted, most applications still use a spring spacer.

[YOUTUBE]jcYuNofL0Ok[/YOUTUBE]
 
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The andreani cartridges don't use a spacer. It looks like they have a circlip on an adjustable perch. Same concept though.

I think you should just ride it and see how it feels. In the video I posted he put people ranging from 135 to 255lbs and the front end sag didn't change.
 
kuksul08 said:
The andreani cartridges don't use a spacer. It looks like they have a circlip on an adjustable perch. Same concept though.
Click to expand...

Boom, easier yet. Just drop the circlip down one on the perch :thumbup

kuksul08 said:
I think you should just ride it and see how it feels. In the video I posted he put people ranging from 135 to 255lbs and the front end sag didn't change.
Click to expand...

Wow, thats a huge range on the same springs.
 
I recently had the same issue but the other way around: I weigh about 140 and was dialing in the front on an R1200GS. Couldn't get the thing to move in the shop. I knew it was the right spring, made some calls, still didn't move enough. So I went back to what's worked for me: a carefully placed zip tie, tools in my pocket and runs through varying terrain. Bonus aspect of this you can get the compression and rebound set as well. It's tough to get suspension adjusted in the shop in general and real tough if your light. You have to go ride it.
 
dravnx said:
I've done the measure technique and the zip tie technique. both come up with 20 mm of sag. The rear is at 40 mm of sag, which is right where it should be.
Static sag is 29 mm front and 14 mm rear
Click to expand...

#1 cause of sag issues is measuring wrong. #2 cause is interpreting the numbers wrong.

you've stated:

29mm static sag
20mm rider sag
29+20 = 49mm total sag

you care about total sag, not rider sag. 49mm is too much sag for a street fork. add some preload back in.

if your shock is at 54mm total sag, add lots of preload back in there.
 
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It could be my technique. Dave Moss had me unload the front, measure, set the bike on the ground and measure again and said the sag is perfect up front and a little tight in the back. Now I'm way confused as he didn't ask for any measurements with my weight on the bike.
 
Those springs are too soft for 200+ pounds, don't care what previous owner said. Replace with .95 or heavier. Cut the spacers to length needed to get sag. You can buy PVC pipe at the hardware store if needed.
 
The Vstrom has 160mm of travel, so 49mm would be perfect.

Why are you all trying to tell him to put PVC pipe in his $1200 andreani cartridges?
 
kuksul08 said:
The Vstrom has 160mm of travel, so 49mm would be perfect.

Why are you all trying to tell him to put PVC pipe in his $1200 andreani cartridges?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. Half the time the fork spacers are plastic. Whatever works. However, as you mention, they are aftermarket. Most aftermarket have only preload as adjustment and are set up to be able to drop springs in easily. Most, don't know about Andreani. GP Suspension are the best for ease of change, Ohlins suck.

Those springs are way too soft for a DL650.. He needs .95 to 1.25.
 
afm199 said:
Doesn't matter. Half the time the fork spacers are plastic. Whatever works. However, as you mention, they are aftermarket. Most aftermarket have only preload as adjustment and are set up to be able to drop springs in easily. Most, don't know about Andreani. GP Suspension are the best for ease of change, Ohlins suck.

Those springs are way too soft for a DL650.. He needs .95 to 1.25.
Click to expand...

1.25!? Where are you getting this number?
 
The Race Tech spring calculator specs .92 springs for a soft ride, which I prefer for my goaty road riding.
 
kuksul08 said:
The Vstrom has 160mm of travel, so 49mm would be perfect.

Why are you all trying to tell him to put PVC pipe in his $1200 andreani cartridges?
Click to expand...

Ernie is correct on this, common practice. Many bikes use a plastic spacer and its common to use PVC pipe to alter the preload on forks without external adjusters or an adjustable internal perch. Dravnx doesnt need to do this as evidently his aftermarket cartridge inserts have an adjustable spring perches.

stangmx13 said:
#1 cause of sag issues is measuring wrong. #2 cause is interpreting the numbers wrong.

you've stated:

29mm static sag
20mm rider sag
29+20 = 49mm total sag
Click to expand...

I think we are all confused by the terms being used, and possibly even Dravnx. But you are right, the total sag number is the one that he is shooting for however he gets there or what he calls it.

I've always read and heard from Pro's "FREE" sag is the measurement under the bikes weight only. I heard and read "STATIC, RACE, RIDER" being used interchangeably (correct or not) and is the figure of the total sag from fully extended with the rider on the bike regardless of how you get there or call it.

dravnx said:
It could be my technique. Dave Moss had me unload the front, measure, set the bike on the ground and measure again and said the sag is perfect up front and a little tight in the back. Now I'm way confused as he didn't ask for any measurements with my weight on the bike.
Click to expand...

Its really as simple as two figures no matter what you call it:

1)How much the bike settles from fully extended under its own weight.
2)How much the bike settles from fully extended with the rider on.

Dave just had you measure the "FREE" sag. Dave's a pro with a lot of experience. With that experience and knowing the spring rates, your weight, and the free sag figure you gave him, he thinks you are set based on his experience.

From the video of him measuring the DL's sag with two vastly different riders weights, tells me that he thinks the DL may be less sensitive to fork spring rate based on any number of things.

Like any expert or pro, you are going to get different opinions and approaches, especially with suspension. Go with who you trust and follow their suggestions.

If you are trying to hit that general rule 30% of travel for "RACE, STATIC, RIDER" sag, you may already be there. Whats the figure from fully extended to where the bike sits with you on it?

If its at 49mm and your travel is 160mm, kuksul08 may be right and you are set.

Others like Ernie might prefer something different or stiffer.

I don't know chickenwinks about the DL, so I have no opinion. :laughing
 
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