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Cop shot at motorcyclist, final decision

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LEOs only respond to this please:

Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?

You jump out INTO TRAFFIC to "create" a 245 on an Officer?

This is what bugs me about the whole thing.
 
Mangoat said:
Why not let the public go through a B PAD simulator and try a scenario "Shoot or Don't Shoot" situation. Then, maybe then they will realize what LEOs have decide in a millionth of a second.

Oh and before that let them read the Use of Force policy

I run our Citizens Police Academy program. Included in that is a stint in the Force Options simulator. Its an eye opening experince when they have to make a split second decision. Its even more awakening when I "put them on the stand" and ask them to explain why they made the decision they made and to defend their actions from my Monday morning quarteebacking.
 
silversvs said:
I run our Citizens Police Academy program. Included in that is a stint in the Force Options simulator. Its an eye opening experince when they have to make a split second decision. Its even more awakening when I "put them on the stand" and ask them to explain why they made the decision they made and to defend their actions from my Monday morning quarteebacking.

Can you put in a Simunitions training scenario:teeth Or how about a Redman sustained resistance scenario?

Brian
 
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:Glenn
Date: Oct 5, 2006 5:19 PM

Hi Julz, looks like we got things a bit stirred up at BARF!

Here’s my reply to Brash, please post it – I don’t want to go to the trouble of enrolling for just this one post.


Thanks.
Glenn


Hello Brash,


I’m the person who typed the original email that was subsequently forwarded to BARF by R6Chick.

In answer to a few of your statements:

“I would actually like to see the actual communication between the liason officer and the guy who ‘told what he heard’ from the officer.”

Sorry to disappoint you, Brash, but you’re outta luck, this will never happen - the communication was verbal, by way of a phone call, and therefore unseeable – as stated in my email.

Regarding your statement “Based upon the wording in the original post up top, I can say for certain, it has been colored and misquoted. I will bet alot of money on the fact that the CHP officer never once said....” you are correct, Lieutenant Johnson never used precisely those words; if you read my email reasonably carefully, you would come to the realization the words were mine, not Johnson’s – there are no quotes in my email.

Now, did Johnson inform me of those particular items that I stated he did? Yes, absolutely. Has it been colored a bit? Perhaps, as justifiable outrage on the part of the person speaking will tend to “color” the commentary. In particular did Johnson use the word “kill?” No, he did not, that’s my word; though, in my understanding of the incident, attempted murder may be more appropriate.

As for me being full of crap and passing on bunk information, you are entirely mistaken, and in fact you are guilty of what you accuse me of – biased statements. Regarding having a “hard-on for cops,” some of my best friends have been cops, one still is, and I at one time thought seriously about becoming one. I am a staunch supporter of the rule of law and a member of the NRA. And a motorcyclist.


Now, having answered in full Brash’s brash comments, I will restate in concise terms the reason for my outrage at the CHP officer’s actions on Hwy 80. The cop was standing in the lane of traffic (not on the shoulder of the roadway – no articles I have read stated the cop was on the shoulder) according to Johnson, waving down the approaching motorcyclist. Whether or not the bike was aimed at the cop is based on the cop’s retelling of events – the motorcyclist may have intended to share the lane with the cop. If this cop had the time to draw his firearm and aim at the approaching bike, he had time to run off the roadway and out of danger. Instead, he opted to fire upon the approaching motorcyclist, thereby putting the innocent passenger at risk of death.


This business of firing on operators of vehicles has so incensed the public in Los Angeles, New York and other cities that police commissions have created limits on when officers can shoot at an occupied vehicle; under the revised policies, officers cannot fire at a moving vehicle unless someone is threatened with deadly force other than the vehicle or cannot evade the vehicle.

In reply to my assertion that the officer was wrong to endanger the innocent passenger, and to justify his previous statement that anything that happens is the fault of and responsibility of the motorcyclist, Johnson gave me the example of two thieves holding up a store: one thief gets shot dead by the cops, the surviving thief gets charged with involuntary manslaughter (or some such) – which I previously know to be true, as they both were engaged in a criminal conspiracy. And so, says Johnson, there’s the reason for laying all the blame for the dead girl on the dead motorcyclist, and absolving the officer of all culpability. I am absolutely NOT making this up!

This is laughable bullshit! He’s just equated a presumed innocent passenger with a hardened criminal, and created a criminal conspiracy out of thin air! In his imagination, the female passenger was no doubt whipping the pilot’s back to spur him on to greater speed.

As for Beauregard’s recommendation to “don’t get on the back of a bike driven by an asshole,” that is good advice, but does Beauregard really feel making that bad choice is worth a young woman’s life? How about your sister’s life? Your mother’s life? Try putting a face on the passenger, then make your decision as to the appropriateness of the cop’s response.

My original statements are based entirely on fact and reasonable interpretation.

I’ve added the original news article at the bottom of this email.

Glenn



Arrest made in connection with police shooting

By J.M. BROWN, Times-Herald staff writer



With an informant's help, authorities have arrested a young Vallejo motorcyclist in connection with a weekend high-speed chase that led to a police shooting.



Ricky M. Aton, 20, who has a history of fleeing police, was arrested Tuesday night after California Highway Patrol officers surrounded his residence, Lt. Scott Reese said Wednesday. More than three dozen marijuana plants were recovered in his home but were not attributed to him.



Aton was booked into Solano County Jail on felony charges of assault with a deadly weapon on a police officer and evading police. He posted bail and was released, but is scheduled to be arraigned July 5, a jail official said.



Aton could not be reached for comment.



The CHP said Aton, who was carrying a female passenger, allegedly fled a motorcycle officer who tried to stop him and another bike for speeding Sunday on eastbound Interstate 80 near the American Canyon Road exit. Aton reached 100 mph before exiting at Red Top Road and the other bike got away, the CHP said.



Aton immediately entered westbound lanes before exiting at Columbus Parkway , the CHP said. A second officer who had gotten off his motorcycle in the area saw Aton exit and flagged him to stop, the CHP said.



Believing the suspect intended to strike the officer with his motorcycle, the CHP said the officer fired a single round. The bullet missed Aton and the Kawasaki he was riding, the CHP said.



The second officer chased Aton on Columbus Parkway , but lost sight of him.



On Tuesday, a confidential informant contacted Vallejo police with information about Aton's identity,

which they turned over to the CHP, Reese said. Investigators determined Aton matched the physical description of the fleeing suspect and had recently registered a motorcycle in his name.



When officers tracked Aton to a Vallejo home Tuesday night, "he initially tried to run but saw the house was surrounded," Reese said.



Officers found the bike in the garage. They also recovered 39 marijuana plants in the home, but a roommate took responsibility for the drugs and was arrested.



Investigators interviewed the woman riding with Aton during the chase, but let her go after determining she was only "along for the scary ride," Reese said.



The CHP is not trying to locate the rider of the other bike because he initially followed the officer's command to pull over, then left the scene after the pursuit started, and did not seem to be evading police, Reese said.



Aton pleaded guilty to a felony in April after he fled from Vallejo police, a court official said. He was sentenced to six months in county jail, which he was serving part-time, followed by three years' probation.

END
 
10851(?), 245 on a LEO and 2800 and he gets 6 months "part-time" WAP :wtf

Wow- I remember when you went to state prison for felonies :rolleyes

He must not have been breast fed as a child.

The system is broken :|
 
motorman4life said:
You must have missed the initial story.

Yep, at least a good description of the actual events of it. Thank you for writing up the incident like that.

My response was mainly targeted at the statement that the cop shot at the rider from the back after he had passed, and that that in itself would be perfectly justified since it was attempted murder. Luckily, that turned out not to be the case.

I have no expectation that LEO's should stand up and put their own safety on the line to engage in a game of chicken with every evading lunatic on the road. I think there were a few other good options available to the LEO, but pulling the gun and firing doesn't seem completely unreasonable in this case, even if I'm glad he missed his target. Of course, if the bike isn't an immediate threat to the officer or others, I would expect the guns to stay holstered.
 
I am against the strict enforcement of moving violations and motorcycles. The laws of the road are designed for larger vehicles. Bikes don't mix well with the other traffic on the road, having the smaller motorcycle travel unencombered within reason would cause no harm. Afterall, they are much more fuel efficient and compact.

Riding a motorcycle alone should not be viewed as a crime just because it is different, and I feel that is the view of many Cops.

I am not trying to justify what ever the said rider had done. I just feel that if the rider didn't feel like such a target for the Cops, he may not have been riding in the manner that resulted in shots being fired. Sport bikes are getting faster and more capable all the time. Allowing these Rockets to be sold to licensed riders and then hunting them down with the law, just doesn't make any sence to me.

I would rather see some prevention rather than "bring it on" Wild West tactics.
 
Two things don't add up here.

First, haven't I heard of 'no chase' policies where pursuits are called off because of fear of harm to the innocent? That rationale appears to be contradicted by much of the above. I would rather have the officer step aside rather than discharge a firearm, if he or she had the choice. Which leads to...

Surely the officer, upon looking up to see a motorcycle close and fast enough to be a threat, would not have time to draw, aim, and fire the weapon before being hit or passed by the speeding bike? And even if supercop could draw like Wyatt Earp, if the bike was really coming straight at him or her, a successful shot only means that you're run over by a motorcycle with a dead driver rather than one with a live one.

C'mon, even the squidliest would know that running over an officer would mean a big old crash for him too. A cop is bigger than a deer and we all know that's not a good impact.

Normally I'm no conspiracy theorist, but sometimes it just does not all add up.
 
You can't run onto a freeway, and shoot at passing motorists because they are about to strike you.

I'm not getting that the officer "created" any situation here. Sounds like he was off the side of the road on an enforcement stop, and M/C crossed over fog line (per witness and officer).

I remember seeing another video of an unnamed agency's officer stepping IFO of a vehicle that was being pursued, and blocked in temporarily. The officer wound up firing several rounds and striking the driver (who continued to flee), but only created the 245/243b by stepping IFO the vehicle.

He wanted to end the pursuit thinking the driver would not flee because the officer was IFO the vehicle. Didn't work out that way.

Verdict - not what I would have done. Reasonable? Professional opinion is no (but I'm not always right). Certainly doesn't look good.
}Dragon{ said:
LEOs only respond to this please:

Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?

You jump out INTO TRAFFIC to "create" a 245 on an Officer?

This is what bugs me about the whole thing.
 
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RolnCode3 said:
I'm not getting that the officer "created" any situation here. Sounds like he was off the side of the road on an enforcement stop, and M/C crossed over fog line (per witness and officer).

I didn't see or recall that he crossed onto the shoulder- I stand corrected and will STFU now :)
 
}Dragon{ said:
LEOs only respond to this please:

Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?

You jump out INTO TRAFFIC to "create" a 245 on an Officer?

This is what bugs me about the whole thing.

Per CHP Policy, we can NOT step in front of moving vehicle, and then fire a round in self defense.

If the vehicle is stopped and suddenly accelerates, and you feel that your life or someone elses life is in danger, I can discharge my weapon.

If the vehicle suddenly goes in reverse, to strike me or my partner, I can fire in self defense.
 
}Dragon{ said:
LEOs only respond to this please:
Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?
You jump out INTO TRAFFIC to "create" a 245 on an Officer?
This is what bugs me about the whole thing.
It depends upon the situation. If you don't give them (the offender) a choice, then in most cases, it would not be justified. Here I'm referring to a situation where the driver would not be able to reasonably react to the officer and get stopped in time.

But, in a case where an officer asserts their authority to stop a vehicle (a fleeing felon, for example) and the officer steps into their path at a point where the driver has sufficient time to 1) stop and/or 2) divert their path to avoid hitting the officer, then yes, the officer can "create" a life threatening situation and then respond to that threat with deadly force.

It is no different than me running around to the back of the bank to intercept an armed robber that is going for the back door. When I come around the corner, I am attempting to cut off his escape. Just like the cop on the freeway, I am putting myself into a life threatening situation.

He still has a choice as to whether there will be a shoot-out. He can surrender. He can turn tail. He can drop his gun and keep running. If he comes out the door and shoots at/toward me... or aims at me or someone else. Then I will open fire. It does not matter what his claimed "intent" is. If I feel threatened, I will respond to that threat.

Just because I intentionally put myself in that situation does not give him an out.

In this case, the officer was lawfully on the off-ramp. The motorcyclist had chosen to flee and operate in a reckless manner and without regard for his safety, his passenger's safety or the safely of others. When the officer saw the bike coming at him, he had a choice: back down or stand his ground. The witness said the bike changed course after the shot was fired and in response to the shot.

As unreasonable as it may seem for a motorcyclist to intentionally hit a person, the officer cannot stop and examine whether the operator is being reasonable or considering the consequences and ramifications of a roadside collision at high speed. Cops get run down by cars/trucks/bikes on a regular basis. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is accidental. More cops are killed by motor vehicle collisions than by guns, knives and impact weapons combined.

If the rider changed course toward the officer or failed to reasonably divert his course from the officer, then the officer would reasonably be justified in meeting deadly force with deadly force.

As for the passenger. They have a choice. I have seen unwilling passengers end pursuits in cars and on bikes. There is no way you could get my mother, sister or daughter to sit tight and hang in there while you ran from the cops. No one gets kidnapped on the back of a sportbike. Let's get real.
 
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Rel said:
Per CHP Policy, we can NOT step in front of moving vehicle, and then fire a round in self defense.

If the vehicle is stopped and suddenly accelerates, and you feel that your life or someone elses life is in danger, I can discharge my weapon.

If the vehicle suddenly goes in reverse, to strike me or my partner, I can fire in self defense.

Thanks- (^^^no problem with that :thumbup)
 
motorman4life said:

In this case, the officer was lawfully on the off-ramp. The motorcyclist had chosen to flee and operate in a reckless manner and without regard for his safety, his passenger's safety or the safely of others. When the officer saw the bike coming at him, he had a choice: back down or stand his ground. The witness said the bike changed course after the shot was fired and in response to the shot.

IMHO your robbery analogy is apples and oranges...

but:

As long as the Traffic Officer didn't go into the lane of traffic and hold out his hand (like superman)... from what has been stated- it sounds like he did what any reasonable and prudent Officer would have done in fear for his life (better tried by 12... :) )

[Armchair QB Mode]He should have done a TJ Hooker and bommerranged his PR24 at him :toothless [/Armchair QB Mode](I keed- I keed!)
 
New avatar anyone?

2749975-dvd-tj-hooker.jpg
 
}Dragon{ said:
IMHO your robbery analogy is apples and oranges...
Your initial question was, "Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?"

My robbery situation is just another example of and officer putting himself into a life threatening situation. It is not apples and oranges. They are both life threatening situations involving an officer taking steps to intercede in a dangerous situation where a citizen would not be expected to step in. I don’t know any officer that would WANT to be in either situation. Both involve spontaneous decisions that directly increase the risk to the officer and put him in imminent mortal danger. Whether the guy fleeing is a reckless driver that is failing to yield or a wife beater, a restraining order violator, a bank robber, a child molester, a counterfeiter or a terrorist... the bad-guy has a choice to stop, yield and/or surrender to the cops. If he fails to do so, his actions can and often do quickly escalate the circumstances to a deadly force situation based upon the threat he presents to officers in his efforts to evade capture.

My bank robber didn’t hurt anyone. He could have had a fake gun. What TRUE/REAL threat would he present? None. If he turned and raised an Airsoft pistol at the cops as he exited the back door, he would likely be shot dead. The officers could wait to see if he was going to shoot. They could follow at a distance and take down a plate number. But, (thankfully) they are not required to back down. Lawyers can argue that their client never intended to face off with the police and the officers used poor judgment in placing themselves into the deadly-force situation. In other words, the bad guy shouldn’t be accountable for his actions, but the police should consider that what they perceive as a threat may not be a true threat and they should wait and see before taking action.

Sounds a lot like the arguments in the freeway incident.
 
Greetings BARF,

I wrote the orginal email that got this thread started.

I hadn’t planned to return to BARF, yet I’m forced to respond to motorman4life, and question why his type of answer is being given to my concern. As Dragon aptly pointed out, the robbery analogy IS equating apples and oranges.

My outrage is mainly against those in law enforcement such as mm4l and that cop on the freeway, who feel it’s open season on innocent bystanders, and only secondly concerning riders and cops playing at high-speed stare-downs on freeways.

First, regarding mm4l’s bank robber analogy: he very conveniently left out the hostage! Let’s reset the robbery scenario, with the robber exiting the rear door as before, but holding a young, attractive, 20-something female (great for the evening news, and she could be YOUR girlfriend or daughter – Hell, let’s say she could even be mm4l’s wife or sister or daughter!) in front as a shield; the robber is unknown to law enforcement at this time, but it is know he hasn’t shot anyone today. mm4l is 40’ distant and has just come around the front of his cruiser when the robber raises his arm, at the end of which is a handgun that will soon be pointed right at mm4l. Now, mm4l, if your superiors have informed you to stand in the open and take a shot at the armed robber, through the hostage, rather than ducking down behind your cruiser, I want to know what department you are employed by so I can hear the rationale for that firsthand – and tell the loved ones to stay out of banks. Not even in Hollywood, and certainly never on the 6pm news, have I seen cops shooting through pretty female hostages. None of the LEO I have ever met would be able to sleep easily again. How would that cop on Hwy 80 get to sleep after killing some father’s daughter on the freeway? (Now, maybe mm4l will respond, “Maybe she wasn’t an attractive woman.” But fellow readers, is that ever a reason to end another person’s life?)

“But that’s different!” mm4l will complain. “How so?” I will answer, “both women are in the intended paths of the bullets, both women have not chosen to be where they are, and both are powerless to be elsewhere.”

“Ah,” mm4l will say, “the passenger on a sportbike can always effect an escape.” I say to mm4l, you have a limited experience with humanity in general, and the female side of us in particular. Many, maybe most women are easily bullied – have a conversation with the personnel in your own department who help battered women. My personal experience with women, and I’ve had a bunch (you’ll have to take my word for that!), is that I can’t recall any one of them who’d exit a motorcycle at freeway speeds – and especially if it’s their first ride. Ever. Hell, I wouldn’t know how to do that. As for mm4l’s sister, mother and daughter falling onto the roadway at freeway speeds, that is something I would not wish on anyone. As for the female passenger reaching any controls or interferring with the pilot’s helmet and vision, how could that be done, safely? And consider, mm4l, if you wish to imagine this scenario for yourself, put yourself on a ‘Busa behind Tim Silvia (6’8”, 265 lbs, UFC record of 24-2-0 and one mean SOB) traveling at 100mph, as that’s what the female passenger experienced.

And lastly I’ll ask mm4l, if females are so good at extricating themselves from male control, why is it that generally females are the preferred hostage, and why do so very, very few female hostages manage to slip the grasp of those males? How is that so many females are kidnapped? This is no mystery to me. You fellows think back on your sisters and girlfriends, and consider what they’d do in the same situation. And consider this: there’s a very good chance the woman had her helmet down and eyes closed once the chase was on – that’s what many women do; she may not have seen the cop in front of the bike, so there’s no need to imagine jumping off a perfectly good motorcyle and onto the meatgrinder that is the freeway surface.

Why didn’t the woman save herself? The real world answers that question.

Keep in mind, it is the innocent life I am most concerned with. Not that I believe a failure of judgement such as exhibited by the motorcyclist warrants the death penalty.

Until recently in my life I have shared mm4l’s opinion that whatever we brought upon ourselves was our own doing. You’ve heard it before: “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out.” Now, I can see that some punishments do not fit the crime (our Constitution backs me on this). I have NEVER felt a dead criminal was worth a dead bystander – a dead father, mother, daughter or son. And I have never felt that a probability of injury to a cop was worth a dead bystander – that’s their job, to stand in harm’s way. It’s most of what we pay them for.

So, argue THIS: is it worth killing an innocent bystander just because she was too timid to make her escape from a speeding sportbike, in order to kill the pilot who may have threatened the cop with his bike, where the probability of impact was not 100%? Try balancing the scales on that!

Would YOU shoot at the rider and passenger, or would YOU try to dodge the bike then and catch the perp later?

Put a face on the soon-to-be-dead, and ask yourself if you’ll pull the trigger.

mm4l would shoot the woman. I cannot.

Glenn

motorman4life:
As for the passenger. They have a choice. I have seen unwilling passengers end pursuits in cars and on bikes. There is no way you could get my mother, sister or daughter to sit tight and hang in there while you ran from the cops. No one gets kidnapped on the back of a sportbike. Let's get real.

motorman4life:
My bank robber didn’t hurt anyone. He could have had a fake gun. What TRUE/REAL threat would he present? None. If he turned and raised an Airsoft pistol at the cops as he exited the back door, he would likely be shot dead. The officers could wait to see if he was going to shoot. They could follow at a distance and take down a plate number. But, (thankfully) they are not required to back down.
 
Lex Talionis said:
And lastly I’ll ask mm4l, if females are so good at extricating themselves from male control, why is it that generally females are the preferred hostage, and why do so very, very few female hostages manage to slip the grasp of those males? How is that so many females are kidnapped? This is no mystery to me. You fellows think back on your sisters and girlfriends, and consider what they’d do in the same situation. And consider this: there’s a very good chance the woman had her helmet down and eyes closed once the chase was on – that’s what many women do; she may not have seen the cop in front of the bike, so there’s no need to imagine jumping off a perfectly good motorcyle and onto the meatgrinder that is the freeway surface.

Why didn’t the woman save herself? The real world answers that question.

Keep in mind, it is the innocent life I am most concerned with. Not that I believe a failure of judgement such as exhibited by the motorcyclist warrants the death penalty.
I never said or implied it was "open season on innocent bystanders." Extrapolating that from my statements is just more of the BS overdramatazation that you began with... at least you are being consistent!

"The real world answers your question..." I like that statement. The officer DID NOT SHOOT THE PASSENGER... he did not even shoot the operator. The REAL world answers your question.

Did the missed shot cause the rider to veer off or was he in the process of doing that when the first shot was fired? We'll never know. We do know he diverted his path and did not strike the officer while he stood his ground and met the threat of deadly force with a threat of deadly force.

If you'll recall, my response was to this question:
Originally posted by }Dragon{
LEOs only respond to this please:
Is it justifiable to use deadly force if you "create" the life threatening situation?
You jump out INTO TRAFFIC to "create" a 245 on an Officer?
This is what bugs me about the whole thing.


That's it. No mention of bystanders or passengers. No mention of Tim Silva, just what you see there. I did not say I would shoot at anyone using a human shield, female or otherwise.

BTW, where do you get your statistics on preferred hostages and kidnapping... Walker Texas Ranger? According to the FBI, the predominant victim of kidnapping is a child under 3 and it is by a parent. Hostages? It depends on where you are at. Again, children are high on the list in the REAL WORLD and no so much on TV and in the movies.

By the way, they only call them "perps" in Hollywood Glenn. :teeth

I'm thinking you must have a low opinion of women if you believe them to be "powerless" in all situations. As for what my wife would do at freeway speeds to extracate herself... trust me, she would not be on a bike fleeing the police at any speed! As I stated previously, I have seen passengers on motorcycles and cars stop pursuits, firsthand and without anyone getting injured. I have seen fleeing motorcycles stop and let passengers off and I have seen passengers beating on the drivers or make such a ruccus that the driver chooses to give up rather than take additional risks. The further that passenger went without asserting a demand to stop, the more risk she was in. If she never communicated her intent to remove herself from the situation, then she was a willing participant. If she did, then she was a kidnapping victim and the operator should be charged appropriately.
 
so where's that PROTECT AND SERVE?
 
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