Cornering and going wide

[ThinkFast]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I couldn’t help but throw in my $0.02 (mostly a summarization of what’s already been said).

1. Props to OP on thinking about this; asking about this; and being open.
2. What went wrong (my take only - I wasn’t there)
- failure to look far enough ahead prior to entry
- too fast going in
- improper throttle control once in the corner
- failure to maintain visual focus on desired direction
3. What you might want to work on/learn about
-SLOW DOWN! On the track the mantra is, “if you’re scaring yourself, you’re going too fast. Slow down until you’re comfortable.” Same thing applies in a street environment.
- looking as far ahead as possible will help you adjust your speed prior to the corner, and stay on desired line once in corner
- trust your equipment - your tires and your motorcycle have waaay more capability than a new rider does.
- be careful about trying to apply advanced skills before you’re ready to. The traditional cornering advice about rolling on in the corner works great - if you’ve done all your braking before you get to the apex and have set your speed and your line for a good line through. All that goes out the window if you’ve “overcooked” the corner! Your tires have way more grip than you are using, so you can safely roll off *a little* mid corner with little risk of losing the front. Mainly, you’ve gotta be looking where you want to go - your brain will figure out what else is needed to get you there.
4. Do a track day with an instructor. Everything above will come into focus very quickly in the safety of a track environment, and translate directly into your street riding.

Good luck and have fun!! That’s why we ride!

 

[Gravisman]

I consider Total Control to be the best of half a dozen riding books I've read to learn how to best control a motorcycle. But A Twist of The Wrist 2 is still aimed at race track skills even if it claims to be more street oriented than the first book.

Personally, I thing Proficient Motorcycling is the best book of all to learn how to ride safely. We shouldn't always be trying to go faster. I just want to enjoy the ride and get back in one piece every time.

The main advantage Twist of the Wrist 2 offers is that you can watch it in video form, which is sometimes nicer than a book. And the video is aimed at "canyon carving" riders.

 

[LakeMerrit]

just look where you want to go (not at the rail) and force more lean angle (push the inside bar forwards, weight the inside foot). Unless you're dragging peg/muffler, you've got more lean available.

If you're already scraping a lot (out of lean angle), move yourself further off the bike to put more weight on the inside tire edge, and slow down next time because this was a close call and a sign you were out of your depth on this one.

 

[kelso]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I couldn’t help but throw in my $0.02 (mostly a summarization of what’s already been said).

1. Props to OP on thinking about this; asking about this; and being open.
2. What went wrong (my take only - I wasn’t there)
- failure to look far enough ahead prior to entry
- too fast going in
- improper throttle control once in the corner
- failure to maintain visual focus on desired direction
3. What you might want to work on/learn about
-SLOW DOWN! On the track the mantra is, “if you’re scaring yourself, you’re going too fast. Slow down until you’re comfortable.” Same thing applies in a street environment.
- looking as far ahead as possible will help you adjust your speed prior to the corner, and stay on desired line once in corner
- trust your equipment - your tires and your motorcycle have waaay more capability than a new rider does.
- be careful about trying to apply advanced skills before you’re ready to. The traditional cornering advice about rolling on in the corner works great - if you’ve done all your braking before you get to the apex and have set your speed and your line for a good line through. All that goes out the window if you’ve “overcooked” the corner! Your tires have way more grip than you are using, so you can safely roll off *a little* mid corner with little risk of losing the front. Mainly, you’ve gotta be looking where you want to go - your brain will figure out what else is needed to get you there.
4. Do a track day with an instructor. Everything above will come into focus very quickly in the safety of a track environment, and translate directly into your street riding.

Good luck and have fun!! That’s why we ride!

Thanks, and you too! I cannot disagree with any of your points.

4. Do a track day with an instructor. Everything above will come into focus very quickly in the safety of a track environment, and translate directly into your street riding.

Eventually it's my intention to attend a track day. Should I look into one while I'm still getting down the fundamentals? Do they have courses for noobs? Can you make any recommendations?

 

[thepretender]

The main advantage Twist of the Wrist 2 offers is that you can watch it in video form, which is sometimes nicer than a book. And the video is aimed at "canyon carving" riders.

I suggest you read as many books as you can also watch Twist of The Wrist several time until you hear the commentary in your head while riding.

Proper technique will go along way and practice will keep you doing the right things. It's easy to get lazy and not THINK while you ride and one of the easiest habits to go especially if your on freeways and streets most of the time is not looking as far into the turn as you can. Just looking at where you want to go instead of right in front of you will make you safer and faster.

When in the canyons I often get motion sick because what I'm looking at and the motion my body is out of sync my brain doesn't compensate. I take anti motion pills before I ride (most of the time) when I forget and start feeling sick I force myself to look straight ahead this syncs my brain and also slows me down. Yes I use bad technique to slow down. Sometimes this means I'm in a corner and my brain goes whoa but I know that at anytime I just look into the turn farther and handle it no problem.

 

[Holeshot]

Thanks, and you too! I cannot disagree with any of your points.



Eventually it's my intention to attend a track day. Should I look into one while I'm still getting down the fundamentals? Do they have courses for noobs? Can you make any recommendations?

The big 3 all will have an instructor to work with you. Z2 is very newbie friendly. Pacific track time and carters at the track are excellent as well.

 

[Slow Goat]

Track for newbs? Yes...

Eventually it's my intention to attend a track day. Should I look into one while I'm still getting down the fundamentals?

Absolutely, preferably with one of the three mentioned.

The track environment is smooth with no road hazards or blind corners (per se) or damn cars. The other riders will not bother you, you can have an instructor lead you or follow you and give you lap to lap critique and instruction. Bring a little notebook to tuck in your jacket if you want.

You will be a better rider by the end of that one day.

 

[ThinkFast]

Absolutely, preferably with one of the three mentioned.

The track environment is smooth with no road hazards or blind corners (per se) or damn cars. The other riders will not bother you, you can have an instructor lead you or follow you and give you lap to lap critique and instruction. Bring a little notebook to tuck in your jacket if you want.

You will be a better rider by the end of that one day.

+1000

Just do it!

 

[kelso]

Absolutely, preferably with one of the three mentioned.

The track environment is smooth with no road hazards or blind corners (per se) or damn cars. The other riders will not bother you, you can have an instructor lead you or follow you and give you lap to lap critique and instruction. Bring a little notebook to tuck in your jacket if you want.

You will be a better rider by the end of that one day.

Z2 has a lot of upcoming track days. Awesome, they're local to Sac! I think I'm gonna shoot for the end of August.

Thanks!.

 

[John999R]

downhill + light acceleration == more acceleration. adding speed while not being comfortable with the line is your primary mistake.



this



doing this without addressing speed is misguided. adding lean angle while also adding speed is one of the riskiest things a rider can do. not adding speed is far safer than adding lean angle.

of course, this depends on the situation and some information we are missing. if the rider never attained a turning radius that would make the corner, more counter steering is absolutely necessary (or more brake before the turn). if the rider was on the correct turning radius and ruined it with acceleration, the safest fix is to not add that acceleration. I read the OP as the latter.

I was going to say the same thing using different words, but when the OP stated the curve was downhill, that is the first thing that came to my mind when the topic of acceleration came up. I learned how downhill roads can mess with your conventional thinking a long time ago.

 

[ThinkFast]

Just read this today. Check it out if you’re hesitant about a tack day: https://www.rideapart.com/articles/360365/took-wrong-bike-track-awesome/

 

[MakoPotts]

Good deal on the progress

 

[Motor_Bay]

I had a similar issue a few months ago — running wide even while adding lean and rolling on the throttle. What helped me understand what was happening was learning more about how speed + vision + body position affect cornering lines.

Recently I was reading a breakdown about common reasons riders run wide in turns and how to adjust technique. Some of the points really clicked for me, especially the part about committing earlier to counter-steer input instead of “waiting to see” how the bike reacts.

After that, practicing firmer, more deliberate steering input made a noticeable difference.

In your case, it sounds like you did the right basics, but the steering input might’ve been too gentle for the speed. Light acceleration is good, but if the bike is still running wide, a stronger counter-steer is usually the fix.

 

[ST Guy]

Yes.

There is other good advice in this thread, but countersteering is the primary solution to your problem.

Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

Corrected:

You can also initiate a turn by pulling on the outside bar. Or push on the inside bar AND pull on the outside bar.

 

[flying_hun]

You can also initiate a turn by pulling on the inside bar. Or push on the outside bar AND pull on the inside bar.

Pulling on the inside grip? That's the opposite of counter steering.

 

[budman]

Pulling on the inside grip? That's the opposite of counter steering.

I think both apply. I will often push the inside bar to initiate the turn and outside bar to hold my line because it is easier to control the lean.
So for me it is a combo thing.

 

[ScottRNelson]

Pulling on the inside grip? That's the opposite of counter steering.

How do you figure that? Push the outside or pull the inside both do exactly the same thing. Before I had ever heard the term "countersteer" I'm pretty sure I did more pulling of the inside than pushing of the outside.

 

[berth]

Well, assuming "inside" is the direction of the turn, so if I'm going right, then inside is the right hand bar, then that's where you want to push, not pull. Pushing the right bar makes the wheel go left, thus the "counter" part of "counter steering".

While, indeed, pulling one grip and pushing the other are the same thing, which grip is being pushed/pulled matters in context.

If "inside" means something different, then, well, it's different.

 

[Enchanter]

You can also initiate a turn by pulling on the inside bar. Or push on the outside bar AND pull on the inside bar.

Timism: words matter.
When I read 'initiate a turn' I visualize a motorcycle NOT turning yet, and traveling in a straight line. In that scenario, if the rider pulls on a bar to initiate the turn, the bar they are pulling on instantly becomes the outside bar.

Pushing on one side and / or pulling on the other side will certainly cause a directional change and while many seasoned riders will experiment with control inputs as we ride, I’m of the opinion that communication is easier if we use standardized terms. This is especially important with riders that are unfamiliar with the actions and words related to counter-steering.

It has been my experience that “push right = go right”, and “push left = go left” are the best words to use when teaching / coaching people to perform and understand counter-steering. The action equals the result: right = right.

 

[flying_hun]

Well, assuming "inside" is the direction of the turn, so if I'm going right, then inside is the right hand bar, then that's where you want to push, not pull. Pushing the right bar makes the wheel go left, thus the "counter" part of "counter steering".

While, indeed, pulling one grip and pushing the other are the same thing, which grip is being pushed/pulled matters in context.

If "inside" means something different, then, well, it's different.

Pulling on the inside grip (e.g., right grip for a right turn) will make the bike stand up.

 

[stratslingr77]

In scanning this, I automatically default to poor visual technique as the culprit. Properly looking through the corner facilitates the rest of it naturally falling into place. If I think back on my fuck-ups, crashes, and close calls on the bike (both on the pavement and off), I can point to 1. Inattention and 2. Poor Visual technique as the leading contributors.

 

[Holeshot]

I had a similar issue a few months ago — running wide even while adding lean and rolling on the throttle. What helped me understand what was happening was learning more about how speed + vision + body position affect cornering lines.

FWIW, adding lean angle + throttle is generally not beneficial to traction. Beast practice is to reduce lean angle while adding throttle. If one is worried about running wide in a corner, reducing speed is the most common solution. Every rider can benefit from mastering trail braking. This is probably one of the most valuable, if not the most valuable skillset to learn in riding, IME.

 

[ST Guy]

Oops….i made a mistake in my post. Post has been corrected.

If you want to make a left turn, you can either push on the left bar (normal method) or pull the right bar back. Or you can do both. Either way works. And of course, pushing is easier than pulling.

This can be more difficult with sport bikes because more of your weight is on the bars. But it works fine. It’s also the method that one armed riders use.

 

[Das MotorRad]

In scanning this, I automatically default to poor visual technique as the culprit. Properly looking through the corner facilitates the rest of it naturally falling into place. If I think back on my fuck-ups, crashes, and close calls on the bike (both on the pavement and off), I can point to 1. Inattention and 2. Poor Visual technique as the leading contributors.

Agreed. Looking at the right thing at the right time is super important - our vision is what gives us most of the information we need to stay on line.

 

[Das MotorRad]

I envision a helmet / glasses that watch where you are looking and gives instant feedback when your vision veers off line. That would bring people up to speed pretty quick.