Crash while avoiding cut off on 101 lanesplitting

[Pluot]

Actually another question:

Is it bad to bring in the clutch all the way while braking? I also notice sometimes I get stuck between 1st and 2nd gear and with the clutch in, it feels very uncontrollable if I'm in neutral.

The red line shows where I would have been, in the lanes. That placement does a few things;
1) possibility that the red car would have seen me in either their rear view or side view mirror
2) As I pull in front of the black car, to return to the fast lane, I'm already turning away from the red car... just in case

I understand. However, I haven't drawn all the cars there that were present, so I couldn't have been in your starting point. But along with the other riders' input, I understand I should have been angling further towards the shoulder.

 

[Cornfish]

Actually another question:

Is it bad to bring in the clutch all the way while braking?

Not at all. If you are going in a straight line and doing an emergency or 'quick stop' you should pull in the clutch, have a firm grip on the bars, keep your weight back and apply pressure to both brakes. As you start to slow (and weight shifts to the front wheel) you will be getting lighter and lighter on the rear brake and firmer on the front. If you are trying to do all that and feather the clutch, it is a lot to deal with. Hard braking will slow you faster than engine braking so pull that clutch!

 

[Gary856]

Is it bad to bring in the clutch all the way while braking? I also notice sometimes I get stuck between 1st and 2nd gear and with the clutch in, it feels very uncontrollable if I'm in neutral.

Hard braking will slow you faster than engine braking so pull that clutch!

Why not use brakes PLUS engine braking to slow, and use the clutch only when you need to shift?

Proper throttle control significantly affects cornering and stability. If you pull the clutch all the way in and hold it there then you lose that important throttle control.

 

[aminalmutha]

Why not use brakes PLUS engine braking to slow, and use the clutch only when you need to shift?

Proper throttle control significantly affects cornering and stability. If you pull the clutch all the way in and hold it there then you lose that important throttle control.

In full on emergency stopping situations, brakes will stop you faster than trying to hamfist a bunch of quick downshifts and/or relying on any sort of engine braking. True panic stops, I'm not relying on engine braking, tho I will be downshifting at the same time to ensure I'm in an ideal gear once the situation has passed.

Again, there's no hard or fast rule; sometimes engine braking helps, sometimes it doesn't. It's not always right or wrong to have the clutch disengaged whilst braking. But do try to be in the right gear at the right time so you can get going again at an appropriate pace.

There's no one thing that's right and you have to be able to manage the throttle, clutch, shifter, brakes and steering all at the same time. And you shouldn't have to think about it, it should be instinctual.

 

[Gary856]

In full on emergency stopping situations, brakes will stop you faster than trying to hamfist a bunch of quick downshifts and/or relying on any sort of engine braking. True panic stops, I'm not relying on engine braking, tho I will be downshifting at the same time to ensure I'm in an ideal gear once the situation has passed.

I didn't say you needed to do a bunch of quick downshifts or rely on engine braking. I said why not leave the clutch alone (with the added benefit of having some engine braking) and use the clutch only when it's needed, i.e., when you want to down shift?

Is there any advantage of pulling/holding the clutch in with the bike free wheeling?

 

[aminalmutha]

And I said sometimes that works, sometimes not. It's not necessarily bad to pull in the clutch. If I'm braking from say 70mph to 0 as fast as possible, I'm not relying on engine braking. It simply doesn't help in that situation.

 

[matjam]

Practice good braking.

A quick google popped this up:

[youtube]i-f34n_74oM[/youtube]

Seems pretty good. It's how I was taught in Australia.

 

[Cornfish]

Why not use brakes PLUS engine braking to slow, and use the clutch only when you need to shift?

In this case, for simplicities sake I thought not worrying about clutching would help the OP since she specifically asked about it. In that kind of situation I brake hard, pull the clutch and downshift to an appropriate gear so I am ready to make a move. If the danger goes away and I braked more than I needed I am ready to get back on the gas and out of the way. I guess I still would suggest OP focuses on effective braking first, but also downshifting to be ready for what comes next.

I still think under heavy braking it is a lot to master to also be downshifting, feathering the clutch and blipping the throttle. And a quick downshift and clutch dump could just as easily turn into a high side.

 

[afm199]

X

I don't want to be the one to say this, but if you lane split and get caught in a situation like this, you're going too fast. It sounds like you panicked and put some hard input into the bars, maybe stabbing the rear brake as well, and got it tankslapping. In any case, yes, if you can't avoid traffic, you're going too fast.

 

[Enchanter]

Is there any advantage of pulling/holding the clutch in with the bike free wheeling?

Yes. There is less to think about.

In an emergency braking situation, the division of attention between the brakes and the clutch/shifting makes one less efficient at either skill. At some point the motorcycle will slow enough to require a downshift to avoid stalling.

 

[planegray]

..................I understand. However, I haven't drawn all the cars there that were present, so I couldn't have been in your starting point. But along with the other riders' input, I understand I should have been angling further towards the shoulder.

Position is always relative, and the most important factor to consider is always changing, so there's not too many hard and fast rules one can pass on. On further thought, I modified your pic (again ) and added a green circle. To me, that is "The DANGER zone", when you are in that green circle, you are at the mercy of the red car. That's where it becomes important for you to have a plan of action (or pattern of action that you've honed over the years) to miss the red car if/when it makes a sudden move. Trust me, you cannot react fast enough to miss the red car if you have not planned to miss the red car before he makes a sudden move (when you are in the green circle)

Thanks for making me think

...................... pull that clutch!

That's an opinion, and that subject is always worthy of a thread of it's own, probably should steer clear of that in THIS thread (and avoid derailing it )

 

[matjam]

I understand. However, I haven't drawn all the cars there that were present, so I couldn't have been in your starting point. But along with the other riders' input, I understand I should have been angling further towards the shoulder.

You're the only one who can keep you alive.

When you're begin relying on other people's good behavior to keep you alive, things may work out well for you for quite some time, but this is purely a happy accident.

At some point, reality will assert itself, the unexpected will happen, and you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What did you do wrong in this specific instance? I've been following the thread, the consensus seems to be;

1. Position
   
   Your position on the road was poor. I believe from what you've said that you had room to move forward, or the car that "cut you off" would have hit you. Even motorcycles with lights and sirens lit up have been cut off in exactly these circumstances. Hi-viz isn't going to help you when the driver simply isn't paying any attention to the traffic around him.
   
   
2. Speed
   
   I'm not sure about this, but it was mentioned. I think personally you weren't going too fast as you were able to brake to the point where you dropped your bike.
   
   
3. Control
   
   Practice braking from highway speeds to a dead stop until you can do it reliably and safely without wobbling everywhere, locking up the front wheel, dropping it, etc.
   
   Practice swerving. It is sometimes better to swerve around a car pulling out than to attempting to stop - depending on your distance and closing speed.

This is intended as constructive criticism. I'm not piling on, and please try not to be defensive when people offer you constructive criticism. I understand some of the defensiveness you've displayed both of your threads, some people in the other thread are being assholes, but understand where it comes from - none of us like to hear about another rider getting hurt or killed, because it could be any one of us so we tend to be a little brutal when one of ours screw up.

We have all fucked up, all of us. None of us are perfect.

Anyway, this topic has been a week of excitement. I don't usually throw my 2c in but there I go anyway. Hopefully someone else will post something and the kids will go chase the new shiny and leave you alone... I'm sure you've got a lot to think about.

 

[Pluot]

I wanted to make it clear that I am not being defensive, or at least not intentionally. Otherwise I wouldn't open myself up to criticism to begin with. What you may be perceiving as being defensive is rather me explaining my circumstances and reactions as I experienced them, because I feel that people are misjudging the actual circumstance I was in. Some have understood it correctly, but several have not.

I personally did not feel I had enough room to move into the open gap; I feel that I would have been cutting off the car to the left of me, or I would only be 5-10 feet ahead of him, which I feel is not enough buffer space between that car's front bumper and mine. However, I do agree about the 'angle towards the gap,' and I've been trying it the past couple days. I'm not sure if it feels quite right to me, or if I'm doing it incorrectly. Angling in right after passing a car to my left almost feels like I'm cutting that car to the left off.

The best reaction I should have had was to slow down and ride next to the car next to me, from the replies I've read and understood.

In all honesty I am getting a bit annoyed about people commenting on how I should not rely on hi-viz; I don't think I've ever implicated that I do - I merely think it as an extra addition to defensive riding. And specifically in my reply to my hi-viz post I replied early on that my concern was in regards to night riding. But for those who do think I am relying on hi-viz, I understand and appreciate their concern.

I am open to all constructive criticism; even criticisms on things that I may already be exercising or practicing but people think that I am not. However, when being told things like 'practice swerving,' I well understand the importance, the reason it is being emphasized and whatnot.. but I'm already practicing it. And I stated in my original post that that was exactly what I tried to do... swerve around the car. So when people keep telling me to do things that I said I was trying to do.. it makes me think, 'are they actually reading what I wrote and assessing the situation correctly, or are they just assuming things about what happened and how I ride?' I understand having a video to compliment my post would have been much more helpful, but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

That being said, I want to mention once again, I VERY MUCH appreciate all the input given to this thread.

You're the only one who can keep you alive.

When you're begin relying on other people's good behavior to keep you alive, things may work out well for you for quite some time, but this is purely a happy accident.

At some point, reality will assert itself, the unexpected will happen, and you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What did you do wrong in this specific instance? I've been following the thread, the consensus seems to be;

1. Position
   
   Your position on the road was poor. I believe from what you've said that you had room to move forward, or the car that "cut you off" would have hit you. Even motorcycles with lights and sirens lit up have been cut off in exactly these circumstances. Hi-viz isn't going to help you when the driver simply isn't paying any attention to the traffic around him.
   
   
2. Speed
   
   I'm not sure about this, but it was mentioned. I think personally you weren't going too fast as you were able to brake to the point where you dropped your bike.
   
   
3. Control
   
   Practice braking from highway speeds to a dead stop until you can do it reliably and safely without wobbling everywhere, locking up the front wheel, dropping it, etc.
   
   Practice swerving. It is sometimes better to swerve around a car pulling out than to attempting to stop - depending on your distance and closing speed.

This is intended as constructive criticism. I'm not piling on, and please try not to be defensive when people offer you constructive criticism. I understand some of the defensiveness you've displayed both of your threads, some people in the other thread are being assholes, but understand where it comes from - none of us like to hear about another rider getting hurt or killed, because it could be any one of us so we tend to be a little brutal when one of ours screw up.

We have all fucked up, all of us. None of us are perfect.

Anyway, this topic has been a week of excitement. I don't usually throw my 2c in but there I go anyway. Hopefully someone else will post something and the kids will go chase the new shiny and leave you alone... I'm sure you've got a lot to think about.

 

[matjam]

I wanted to make it clear that I am not being defensive, or at least not intentionally.

Nobody intends to be defensive, but you're obviously getting pissed off at people who are just trying to help you put things into context.

I'm done. You'll figure this shit out I'm sure. Good luck! Glad you're ok.

 

[tzrider]

Nobody intends to be defensive, but you're obviously getting pissed off at people who are just trying to help you put things into context.

The only person I saw her get aggravated with wasn't trying to help.

 

[Pluot]

Nobody intends to be defensive, but you're obviously getting pissed off at people who are just trying to help you put things into context.

I'm done. You'll figure this shit out I'm sure. Good luck! Glad you're ok.

I honestly don't understand how my responses are defensive. People are assuming I did or didn't do things so I'm clarifying my position. Perhaps you are too used to people assuming the defensive; however I have no reason to be defensive whatsoever.. what would be the point in getting support that doing the wrong thing is the right thing, only to be hit by a car next time? I appreciate the feedback but I really don't get the feeling that you fully comprehended the things I stated I did and what I tried to get across. If it my lack of skill in explaining things, I apologize.

If I wrote that I have been practicing swerving and actually did swerve in the situation, then am told that I should have swerved, what would be the proper response on my part without being defensive as you say I am being? Or not to rely on hi viz, when I've said several times that I do not rely on hi-viz to be noticed? It makes me feel like people are responding without even reading what I've said.

I am not remotely pissed off. I am just trying to present the correct context, as you are assuming the wrong context. I was the one there... why would you suggest my context of presenting the situation is wrong?

As for your three points, I find them relevant and helpul. While I understand reading and responding to threads is time consuming and not everyone reads thoroughly before responding, I'm surprised you don't understand why I feel the need to elaborate when people haven't correctly understood how things happened (from my perspective).

I fully accept responsibility for my misjudgment and lack of skill in this instance. I have nothing to defend. But if you say I was at point A when I was at point B, I am going to correct it.

 

[Pluot]

I've learned a lot from this thread, and any misunderstanding that followed have been cleared. Thank you again for all the helpful feedback everyone. Please feel free to always provide constructive criticism, I believe it is the fastest way to learn. I am going to take the time to re-read the responses and practice as suggested.

 

[sanjuro]

I wanted to make it clear that I am not being defensive, or at least not intentionally. Otherwise I wouldn't open myself up to criticism to begin with. What you may be perceiving as being defensive is rather me explaining my circumstances and reactions as I experienced them, because I feel that people are misjudging the actual circumstance I was in. Some have understood it correctly, but several have not.

I personally did not feel I had enough room to move into the open gap; I feel that I would have been cutting off the car to the left of me, or I would only be 5-10 feet ahead of him, which I feel is not enough buffer space between that car's front bumper and mine. However, I do agree about the 'angle towards the gap,' and I've been trying it the past couple days. I'm not sure if it feels quite right to me, or if I'm doing it incorrectly. Angling in right after passing a car to my left almost feels like I'm cutting that car to the left off.

The best reaction I should have had was to slow down and ride next to the car next to me, from the replies I've read and understood.

In all honesty I am getting a bit annoyed about people commenting on how I should not rely on hi-viz; I don't think I've ever implicated that I do - I merely think it as an extra addition to defensive riding. And specifically in my reply to my hi-viz post I replied early on that my concern was in regards to night riding. But for those who do think I am relying on hi-viz, I understand and appreciate their concern.

I am open to all constructive criticism; even criticisms on things that I may already be exercising or practicing but people think that I am not. However, when being told things like 'practice swerving,' I well understand the importance, the reason it is being emphasized and whatnot.. but I'm already practicing it. And I stated in my original post that that was exactly what I tried to do... swerve around the car. So when people keep telling me to do things that I said I was trying to do.. it makes me think, 'are they actually reading what I wrote and assessing the situation correctly, or are they just assuming things about what happened and how I ride?' I understand having a video to compliment my post would have been much more helpful, but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

That being said, I want to mention once again, I VERY MUCH appreciate all the input given to this thread.

Well, the hi-viz comment is what caught my eye here, and I will comment about it that that post.

I've also read through your crash post in General too.

I think you forced a bad position, going a little too fast into a situation, a car merging into an open gap, which was readable with more experience.

If you were expecting the car to merge into that gap, you would have been better prepared for your emergency options, a swerve around or hard braking.

As for the hard braking, you wrote a few times that you lock up your rear brake. Obviously it is a skill you need to practice more.

I find that better read of traffic minimizes emergency situations.

 

[Pluot]

Definitely, my read was incorrect. But since I had already used the skills I know to try to get a read and misread the car's intention, I think it best that I from now I on work on my positioning primarily, as my read on traffic was wrong, and better positioning will reduce the need to react to unpredictable (or predictably unpredictable) motorists.

 

[MysterYvil]

Not sure if it applies to your situation, but I've gotten a hard-braking wobble from a few motos. Turned out that my braking technique, which I honed on 80s-era disc/drum motos, did not translate well to modern disc/disc motos. I was coming close to locking (or locking) the disc rear, which overloaded the front, and all of a sudden, squirrely handling.

I went back to the drawing board, drilled a ton, and overcame it. I also found that practicing on crap-traction surfaces (dirt parking lots for the most part) really helped.

Position-wise and anticipation-wise, the other poster have it covered.

Horn-wise, I have rarely used mine in 30 years of riding. Unless it's children, pets, or squirrels, it just doesn't seem to pay off.