Cutoff then Lowsided

[filamklo]

Yeah, I had my first incident today. I was on my way to a friends house when I was cutoff by a driver. This was in a residential area and I was going to make a left turn into another street. The driver was at a stop sign waiting to make a right turn. I know the driver saw me coming because he (or she) was about to take a right but then stopped and saw me. A second later, the driver decided he could go so he made his right.

I used both brakes and tried to stop as fast as I could without locking up either wheel. I was about 2 feet from his rear bumper when I slid out (with the right side of my bike going down). I think this may have happened because the street that I was on wasn't completely level and it had a weird slope that went towards the right.

Anyway, the driver then stopped for a short second and saw me on the ground by looking in his mirrors. He then drove away. Luckily there were other people around that helped me get my bike back up. The only damage I have is a scuffed right mirror and a broken front right turn signal. The frame sliders took all of the damage. Atleast this gives me an excuse to get flushmounts. I have no physical damage. My gear took all of the damage which was only a scuff mark on my boot.

Things that I could have changed:
-Used a horn to signal the driver that I'm there? (although i know that he saw me)
- Stopped earlier once i saw that he was thinking about going.
- Practice emergency stops.

Any other suggestions? Thank goodness I'm physically fine though.

 

[McGrude]

Phew that was close. Did you have your turn signal on?

 

[filamklo]

I had the signal on. I was going to make a turn into that street that he was on.

 

[afm199]

I suggest practicing braking more. And consider using only the front brake. What happened was that you locked up the rear wheel and had it not happened, you might have stayed upright.

 

[RcrBoy]

I suggest practicing braking more. And consider using only the front brake. What happened was that you locked up the rear wheel and had it not happened, you might have stayed upright.

Ernie,
OP says he did not lock either wheel. It is possible he did it without realizing it.
I have to disagree with use of only front brake on the street. I use both, and it's a fact that both brakes reduce stopping distance better than the front brake alone. It's does take quite a bit of skill to modulate both effectively.

From the OP's description of the accident and being at the rear bumper of the vehicle just before he fell, perhaps heavy braking to reduce speed, then release of the brakes to maneuver around the rear of the vehicle was possible.
It's hard to say because I was not there.............
This is a skill they teach at an advance rider course using cones.


Just my...


Mark

 

[flying_hun]

The driver was on the cross street that you were turning left on to, and that driver was on the the right hand side of that same intersection, and when the driver pulled out it was to turn to his right (the same direction of travel you were on prior to turning)? If so, was there some reason why you could not veer left around him?

In any event, it does sound like practicing both emergency braking and steering would be useful.

 

[afm199]

Ernie,
OP says he did not lock either wheel. It is possible he did it without realizing it.
I have to disagree with use of only front brake on the street. I use both, and it's a fact that both brakes reduce stopping distance better than the front brake alone. It's does take quite a bit of skill to modulate both effectively.

Mark

I agree that skill is needed for modulation. I disagree that it is a "fact" that both brakes reduce braking distance. In certain circumstance, yes. I always use both riding two up, when there is actually rear wheel traction. In an emergency stop, when you are hard on the front, the rear lightens so much that the chances of sliding are greatly increased. You know that. How many times have seen someone in a race with the rear wheel six inches in the air? How much braking does that provide?

 

[RcrBoy]

How many times have seen someone in a race with the rear wheel six inches in the air? How much braking does that provide?

Exactly my point. I said street not race. There is a difference. I brake differently on the street than I do when I race because the environment is very distinct between the two.
BUT. It really comes down to what you're most comfortable with.

Cheers Mate

Mark

 

[beginner]

I agree that skill is needed for modulation. I disagree that it is a "fact" that both brakes reduce braking distance. In certain circumstance, yes. I always use both riding two up, when there is actually rear wheel traction. In an emergency stop, when you are hard on the front, the rear lightens so much that the chances of sliding are greatly increased. You know that. How many times have seen someone in a race with the rear wheel six inches in the air? How much braking does that provide?

My impression, with limited experience but a lot of practice is that it's worth having the rear brake in use because some extra drag from the rear helps keep the bike going straight which is desirable when the front brake is being used. Obviously it's not good if the rear wheel locks but avoiding that is what practice is about?

 

[Lights_Guy3]

I know the driver saw me coming because he (or she) was about to take a right but then stopped and saw me.

When on a bike, right of way goes to the bigger vehicle. If this happen again, I suggest just stopping and letting the person go

 

[afm199]

My impression, with limited experience but a lot of practice is that it's worth having the rear brake in use because some extra drag from the rear helps keep the bike going straight which is desirable when the front brake is being used. Obviously it's not good if the rear wheel locks but avoiding that is what practice is about?

Many feel that in an emergency you should respond according to the situation. On a wet road the rear brake is indicated, traction to the front is limited. On a dry road you can get hella braking force from a front brake. And the PROBLEM with the rear brake is that the as you increase braking force on the front brake, the rear lightens and you have to DECREASE rear brake force. That leads you to a situation where your attention is divided between front brake, rear brake ( which at BEST adds 5-10% under certain conditions) and impact point. In a situation like this I would argue that throwing out the least effective component (rear brake) in favor of giving more attention to the front brake and the impact point is indicated. I would bolster this argument with the idea that you are forced, as front brake increaes, to further monitor the rear brake and let off some.. That takes MORE attention away for LESS braking power. You don't need that decreasing 5% to avoid an accident. On the race track, where HEAVY HARD BRAKING at a level you almost never experience on the street is used, almost NO racers use the rear brake for braking. They might use it for other reasons, but they don't use it for slowing down for corners. So you might think about that, and consider whether some of the best riders in the world DON'T use the rear brake, and ask whether that information is helpful.

The truth is that there is so little rear braking power available that it is seldom ( notice I am not saying never) indicated. I do use it on the street. But in an emergency, stopping with the front brake will probably save your butt more than using both and ending up with the rear end sliding around.

The OP says the bike just went down, but that is not a very good description, nor do you have to lock up the rear to lose it.

In a perfect world the rear brake can add some help. But we are not perfect riders, and frankly if I am going down the freeway at grossly illegal speeds and a semi suddenly falls sideways in front of me out of nowhere, I am not going to react with the rear brake. I will be ALL OVER THE FRONT BRAKE. That tenth of a second reaction time for the rear brake might be what saves my life, by adding it to the front.

I read so often on BARF about new riders "Slamming on the brakes and locking up the rear and going down" and so seldom about riders "Braking hard with the front" and not going down.......I wonder why

 

[filamklo]

hey thanks for all the responses. i really do appreciate it. Maybe I did lock up the rear. I don't know. It all happened so fast. I always hear the arguements about rear breaking and I use the rear break just because I'm used to it (MSF taught me that and i did the same on a normal bike as well). I'm going to try using the front break only for now and see how that goes. I havent tried that yet but we'll see how it goes.

As for the bike going down, I think it may have gone down because the handlebars were not completey straight as i was breaking (I was going to make a turn). I think that I breaked in mid turn and thats why i went down. Who knows? Thats how it may have happened.

I'm just really glad that I'm safe. I'm also thankful for those Mexican gangsters who helped me get my bike back up and even offered to hunt that driver down (I declined that offer). Now I just need to replace that front right turn signal on the SV, sand down the right side mirror a little and get some confidence back to start riding.

Thanks again!

 

[DataDan]

If you don't mind, could you clarify the situation? IMHO, things can usually be defused before it comes down to emergency maneuvers, though certainly not always. Maybe if we can visualize it we can suggest actions that would have eliminated the need for braking.

You're approaching an intersection, intending to turn left. The car is at a stop sign, intending to turn right. If we call your direction of travel north, intending to turn west, what was the car's direction of travel and intended direction? Did you have a stop sign too?

 

[beginner]

. And the PROBLEM with the rear brake is that the as you increase braking force on the front brake, the rear lightens and you have to DECREASE rear brake force. That leads you to a situation where your attention is divided between front brake, rear brake ( which at BEST adds 5-10% under certain conditions) and impact point.

My first goal as a beginner is to be able to brake and maneuver the bike at least as well as I can my car. Do I have to stop using the rear brake to accomplish that with the brakes? I have not noticed advice that says use the front brake only until you brought it up.

 

[afm199]

My first goal as a beginner is to be able to brake and maneuver the bike at least as well as I can my car. Do I have to stop using the rear brake to accomplish that with the brakes? I have not noticed advice that says use the front brake only until you brought it up.

My suggestion is not to stop using the rear brake, it is to consider that the front brake on an upright bike on a dry street will give you plenty of braking power and in that situation using the rear brake is probably to your disadvantge. For wet streets, up hill turns, slow traffic, two up, and many other times the rear brake has a place. I don't wear out rear brake pads, that is an indication of how much I use them. I probably go through five sets of front pads to one rear.

Again, I am not suggesting you stop using the brake, I am suggesting you practice emergency stops without it. Find an empty street. Set up a coke bottle and ride up to it at 35 mph. Use the front brake only to stop as rapidly as possible. Then use the rear brake only to stop as rapidly as possible. Then use both to do the same. Mark each spot. Hint: rear brake only will probably have a 30 foot skid mark. Do this drill over and over and decide for yourself what makes sense. A lot of people discover that when they try to stop as rapidly as possible, they end up locking up the rear time after time.

When I taught this drill at Class, 2/3 of the students would lock up the rear initially using both brakes.

 

[filamklo]

If you don't mind, could you clarify the situation? IMHO, things can usually be defused before it comes down to emergency maneuvers, though certainly not always. Maybe if we can visualize it we can suggest actions that would have eliminated the need for braking.

You're approaching an intersection, intending to turn left. The car is at a stop sign, intending to turn right. If we call your direction of travel north, intending to turn west, what was the car's direction of travel and intended direction? Did you have a stop sign too?

what i meant to say was that the car was going to turn Left, not right. he had a stop sign and I had right of way to make my left turn first (although now i realize motorcycles dont have right of way). I didn't have a stop sign at all.

 

[JeffKoch]

Front/Rear braking depends on the bike and conditions. On a cruiser or similar heavy long-wheelbase bike, you need to use the rear brake because the front will lock up even on clean dry pavement under heavy braking. On a sportbike, in ideal conditions, you'll loft the rear long before you lock up the front, so there's no reason to bother with the rear brake. Maximum stopping power comes from the front brake alone.

If conditions aren't ideal (wet pavement, cold tires, etc.), the situation changes - you'll need to use more rear brake than you're used to using, because the front will lock up before you loft the rear tire. Deciding which situation you're in is tough, which is a good reason to become skilled in using both brakes.

 

[Torpedo]

How many times have seen someone in a race with the rear wheel six inches in the air? How much braking does that provide?

Depends, on slicks not much but a decent treaded tire will add a considerable amount of aerodynamic drag once the rotation has stopped and it is hanging motionless in the air.

Bombing into eleven at Sears (is it still turn eleven?), 100% front brake is appropriate. Bending into eleven you either use both brakes, fall down, or get passed by someone who knows how to use both brakes. But then you already knew that.

The Complete Rider understands the appropriate use of both front and rear brake. JMHO.

 

[ontherearwheel]

If there is any chance of a car turning in front of you, always act as if it will.

NEVER EVER trust drivers.

 

[Enchanter]

Depends, on slicks not much but a decent treaded tire will add a considerable amount of aerodynamic drag once the rotation has stopped and it is hanging motionless in the air.

What? Please point me to the data that supports this statement.