P777
Member
I will appreciate an advice on ways to downshift when the traffic light turns red upon coming to a intersection, let's say at 50 or 60 mph. How do you downshift when you make a quick non-emergency stop?
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Downshift when coming to red light
- Thread starter P777
- Start date
rodr
Well-known member
Never thought about it much. Usually I just hold in the clutch, click down into 1st while braking to a stop, then go to neutral if it seems safe to do so. Got some tendinitis so don't always like to hold in the clutch while waiting.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
This is one of those subjects that is almost an oil or tire thread as everyone has their own belief about what is best.
For me, I always stop with the brakes only and I do not use the engine braking to slow me down when I am stopping.
What I have always done is to pull the clutch in, and hold it in as I am braking and downshifting to have the engine in the correct gear corresponding to my current speed but I do not release the clutch with each downshift so the engine braking is slowing the motorcycle.
My logic in doing it this way is:
1) it is simpler and simpler is almost always better and easier to do.
2) it is smoother and every motorcycle benefits from smoothness.
3) brake components are cheap and are easy to replace. Engine and transmission parts are much more expensive and difficult to replace.
4) it provides better, more consistent traction and traction is what allows you to stop.
5) cycling the clutch with each downshift causes the bike to shift weight back to front and back again and that gives you variable traction, not consistent traction and is considerably less smooth.
6) in a quick stop situation you will do what you routinely do to stop. This is shown to be true in all sorts of activities that when stressed you tend to react in your habitual way. And, in a quick stop situation, you won't care what gear the bike is in, and you need good, consistent traction in a quick stop.
7) brakes stop the bike with more control and consistency than engine braking.
8) Most bikes have brakes that are much more powerful than engine braking.
9) this is the method taught in every rider education program I am aware of so the experts in riding seem to think this is the best technique.
As I said above, others have their belief systems and do other processes. But this works well for me for the last 44 years on the road.
For me, I always stop with the brakes only and I do not use the engine braking to slow me down when I am stopping.
What I have always done is to pull the clutch in, and hold it in as I am braking and downshifting to have the engine in the correct gear corresponding to my current speed but I do not release the clutch with each downshift so the engine braking is slowing the motorcycle.
My logic in doing it this way is:
1) it is simpler and simpler is almost always better and easier to do.
2) it is smoother and every motorcycle benefits from smoothness.
3) brake components are cheap and are easy to replace. Engine and transmission parts are much more expensive and difficult to replace.
4) it provides better, more consistent traction and traction is what allows you to stop.
5) cycling the clutch with each downshift causes the bike to shift weight back to front and back again and that gives you variable traction, not consistent traction and is considerably less smooth.
6) in a quick stop situation you will do what you routinely do to stop. This is shown to be true in all sorts of activities that when stressed you tend to react in your habitual way. And, in a quick stop situation, you won't care what gear the bike is in, and you need good, consistent traction in a quick stop.
7) brakes stop the bike with more control and consistency than engine braking.
8) Most bikes have brakes that are much more powerful than engine braking.
9) this is the method taught in every rider education program I am aware of so the experts in riding seem to think this is the best technique.
As I said above, others have their belief systems and do other processes. But this works well for me for the last 44 years on the road.
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mjj
Cookie
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If I have a passenger, or am being lazy, I pull in the clutch lever, and brake all the way in. I start dropping gears at about 25 mph just to give the transmission a break, but I don't engage the clutch. This is smoother and requires less thought.
If I’m practicing downshifting, I control the throttle with my right thumb and forefinger, brake with the other 3 fingers, and tap the clutch with the left fingers. I’ve never found that downshifting needs a full pull on the clutch lever. If you want to think you’re fancy, or have a big twin or single without a slipper, blip the throttle to rev match your shifts.
I’ve been trying this for years and rarely get it just right, so when I do, it is satisfying.
But specifically to the question “what to do during a quick stop” I don’t worry about the fancy stuff. I have too much else to think about than shifting if I’m coming in hot to a red light. Notably: what is going on behind me?
If I’m practicing downshifting, I control the throttle with my right thumb and forefinger, brake with the other 3 fingers, and tap the clutch with the left fingers. I’ve never found that downshifting needs a full pull on the clutch lever. If you want to think you’re fancy, or have a big twin or single without a slipper, blip the throttle to rev match your shifts.
I’ve been trying this for years and rarely get it just right, so when I do, it is satisfying.
But specifically to the question “what to do during a quick stop” I don’t worry about the fancy stuff. I have too much else to think about than shifting if I’m coming in hot to a red light. Notably: what is going on behind me?
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P777
Member
Thanks guys. I am not looking for anything fancy. In my commute back and forth to work I get in a situation from time to time of a short yellow light before changing to red at 50 to 60 mph speed. I tried both options discussed here when it came to a need to stop, pull the clutch with applying brakes while downshifting to the first gear, and the alternative way of downshifting gears from 5th to 1st. It looks like both options are in use per replies here. What is recommended more by riding instructors for going down from speeds above 50mph to stop for intersection situations?
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motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
I am an instructor in several different riding courses and, I gave you my recommendations above.
tzrider
Write Only User
In any riding situation, the simpler and more consistent your approach, the better. Like others above, I usually just pull the clutch and brake until I get to a very low speed, then click a bunch of downshifts until I'm in first.
Gary856
Are we having fun yet?
I would brake and stay in the existing gear (no clutch) to take advantage of engine braking until the engine almost bogged, shift down one gear and repeat if I'm still moving at a good pace. When I’m slow enough that engine braking isn’t much of a factor, I’d pull in the clutch and click all the way down to first with the clutch disengaged. As I come close to a stop I'd shift into neutral. Maintain situational awareness, of course.
Stay in gear and take advantage of engine braking - it lightens the braking effort needed so your hand’s less fatigued. You can brake more efficiently, with better feel of the lever feedback and be more delicate/accurate with brake lever modulation. Being in gear, you have a better feel where you are in the power curve, and how many downshifts are needed to accelerate when needed, such as when the light turned green before you’re stopped.
Stay in gear and take advantage of engine braking - it lightens the braking effort needed so your hand’s less fatigued. You can brake more efficiently, with better feel of the lever feedback and be more delicate/accurate with brake lever modulation. Being in gear, you have a better feel where you are in the power curve, and how many downshifts are needed to accelerate when needed, such as when the light turned green before you’re stopped.
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berth
Well-known member
Yes, "never" put the bike in neutral at a stop.
Mind, I'm known to violate that when there's several cars behind in the lane.
But as a general rule, keep the bike in gear, to that escape route you have planned can be used (you have an escape route, yes?).
A key strength of motorcycles is being able to get out of the way.
Mind, I'm known to violate that when there's several cars behind in the lane.
But as a general rule, keep the bike in gear, to that escape route you have planned can be used (you have an escape route, yes?).
A key strength of motorcycles is being able to get out of the way.
ScottRNelson
Adventure and Dual Sport
This topic comes up regularly once or twice a year here. I disagree with the idea of keeping it in gear at a light. It takes less than half a second to get back to first gear if I detect the need to be in gear, and I expect to need way more time than that to be able to determine that I might need to "escape". The harder part would be determining where to escape to.
In all of my decades of riding, I've never once had to escape from someone coming up behind me. If I think someone might be coming in too fast back there, I first flash my brake light off and on a few times to wake them up. So far that has been enough.
I would like to hear actual stories of having to use an escape route at a light. I can't think of a single one shared here on BARF in all the time I've been here.
As for downshifting, just work your way down to the appropriate gear for your speed. Every once in a while I get down to first at a speed that is too fast to be letting out the clutch. It can be hard on the transmission, and is not something you want to be doing regularly. I also occasionally manage to get stopped while still in 3rd or 4th. Usually by the second time I kill the engine I figure it out.
That is usually a sign of a wandering mind.sk8norcal
Sir Shift-A-Lot
yeah, my left hand would cramp up holding the clutch that long on those long stops. I don't see neutral as an issue, there is a pattern to the traffic lights so you can get ready, and I can take off pretty quickly from neutral if needed.
berth
Well-known member
Interestingly, I have.
And when I looked over at the lady whom I had made space for, I basically got a relieved, mouthed (window was close) "thank you". Dunno what here issue was, but I'm glad I moved, and so was she.
I've also had less dramatic moments where I have moved and folks had stopped a bit too close for comfort, but not as dramatic as that one.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
I've had two occasions where I needed to evade a car coming up behind me at a light.
One of them was a metering light getting on 101 at Lawrence expressway. I was stopped at the light waiting for it to change when I see, in my mirror, a small SUV coming up behind me and not slowing down so I took off and ran the light.
Second occasion was also on Lawrence expressway a couple miles south of 101 where I was stopped at a light, in the right hand lane, and a SUV approached from behind But did not seem to be slowing. So I turned right on red. That SUV proceeded directly into the intersection and hit two other cars that were in the cross traffic.
One of them was a metering light getting on 101 at Lawrence expressway. I was stopped at the light waiting for it to change when I see, in my mirror, a small SUV coming up behind me and not slowing down so I took off and ran the light.
Second occasion was also on Lawrence expressway a couple miles south of 101 where I was stopped at a light, in the right hand lane, and a SUV approached from behind But did not seem to be slowing. So I turned right on red. That SUV proceeded directly into the intersection and hit two other cars that were in the cross traffic.
+1. In gear (first), clutch in, ready to scoot away from the cage that doesn't see me in the lane and fails to stop in time.
If you're in neutral, there's some chance you'll miss the shift into first and it'll take longer to scoot out of the way. That longer may be the interval between being hit and evading.
If your hand cramps from holding in neutral at stop lights I suggest you get a hand strength exerciser.
ScottRNelson
Adventure and Dual Sport
You've missed shifts into first? I didn't think that was even possible.
dravnx
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Some bikes are not easy to shift into 1st from neutral when stopped. I'm always in first when at a stop. I've been glad to be able to quickly move forward and to the side more then a once to give myself a little extra room when my spidey sense started tingling.
berth
Well-known member
One less things to do when stressed should something come up.
It's not a universal rule, it's a guideline that intermixes with all of the other habits folks develop when left out in the open and exposed.
If you're stuck at a flag man, assess the situation, put it in neutral, heck, turn it off, get off and walk around the bike. Who knows what's going on.
But most lights aren't long enough to matter, so may as well leave it in gear. If you're at a left turn lane with a bunch of cars behind you, then go ahead.
If you're lane splitting to an intersection, I can't imagine NOT having it in gear.
But, as a rule of thunb, I keep it in gear, cluch in, scanning the roads and mirrors waiting for the change. As I mentioned elsewhere, I strive to not look in my mirrors and be surprised by what I see (can't say I always succeed). "Where'd that F150 come from!"