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Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits

gnahc79

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Fortunately the pilot landed fine, never knew this could happen though.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/dutch-f-16-takes-cannon-fire-from-itself/

The Netherlands’ Defense Safety Inspection Agency (Inspectie Veiligheid Defensie) is investigating an incident during a January military exercise in which a Dutch Air Force F-16 was damaged by live fire from a 20-millimeter cannon—its own 20-millimeter cannon. At least one round fired from the aircraft’s M61A1 Vulcan Gatling gun struck the aircraft as it fired at targets on the Dutch military’s Vliehors range on the island of Vlieland, according to a report from the Netherlands’ NOS news service.
 
6000 rounds per minute but only 5 seconds worth of bullets are able to be loaded?
 
You would have to work pretty hard to run down your own rounds that have slowed down due to drag, including flying straight and dropping your elevation while flying at significant speeds.

Not too bright.
 
Pretty hard to do. When those rounds leave an aircraft traveling at 2000 fps ( or whatever), that velocity is additive. Relative to the ground they will be traveling over 4000 fps the instant they leave the barrel. While that velocity will drop rapidly, as they are no longer powered and the jet is, the rounds will also drop 32 fps/ps. So you'd have to increase aircraft velocity and drop altitude, both rapidly.
 
6000 rounds per minute but only 5 seconds worth of bullets are able to be loaded?

Those rounds probably weigh close to a half pound each. The actual projectile is around 3 ounces. Actually, they weigh over 1/2 pound each, just looked it up.

Depending on the fuel load, the max carry weight of munitions might be as little as 4,000 pounds.
 
Kaman K-Max and the Boeing CH-47, only aircraft that can have a mid-air collision with itself.
 
You would have to work pretty hard to run down your own rounds that have slowed down due to drag, including flying straight and dropping your elevation while flying at significant speeds.

Not too bright.

It has happened.

It appears that this incident was ricochet or fragments.

This image from the F-16 in question, is looking from the front (left side of the image) towards the rear.
Dutch_F16_20.jpg
 
You would have to work pretty hard to run down your own rounds that have slowed down due to drag, including flying straight and dropping your elevation while flying at significant speeds.

Not too bright.

Not so.

The target could be at an up angle relative to the aircraft and the pilot could then fly level or down angle and catch the projectiles. Similarly, the target could be level to the flight path and the pilot choose a flight path at a greater angle downward and catch the projectiles.

If the cannon's barrel is fixed to compensate for projectile drop another scenario also allows for catching the rounds.

I think you are unaware of how these things work and are throwing out a guess that just doesn't work.
 
The target could be at an up angle relative to the aircraft and the pilot could then fly level or down angle and catch the projectiles. Similarly, the target could be level to the flight path and the pilot choose a flight path at a greater angle downward and catch the projectiles.

If the cannon's barrel is fixed to compensate for projectile drop another scenario also allows for catching the rounds.

If you had left your reply with a representation of your opinion you might get a discussion, agreement or debate. That you peppered it with an insult or two will almost guarantee to get a like insult in return. I shortened your post to what I would suggest as a less caustic reply.
 
You would have to work pretty hard to run down your own rounds that have slowed down due to drag, including flying straight and dropping your elevation while flying at significant speeds.

Not too bright.

I'm going to assume the fighter pilot knows more about this than you or I do, unless you, too, are or were a fighter pilot.
 
You would have to work pretty hard to run down your own rounds that have slowed down due to drag, including flying straight and dropping your elevation while flying at significant speeds.

Pretty hard to do. ...So you'd have to increase aircraft velocity and drop altitude, both rapidly.

I'm going to assume the fighter pilot knows more about this than you or I do...

The link from Enchanter paints a description similar to Brett's hypothesis. Is that his intuition, he read about the incident before or some other possibility, only he would know. That said his description is close to what happened at least once.

a Grumman test pilot flying a Tiger off the coast of Long Island dropped his nose twenty degrees and pointed it at an empty spot of ocean. He fired a brief, four second burst from his four Colt Mk.12 20-millimeter cannons, entered a steeper descent, and hit the afterburners. A minute later, his windshield suddenly caved in and his engine started making funny noises... the pilot had actually flown into his own stream of 20-millimeter cannon rounds. Although the rounds had a head start (the air speed of the aircraft plus the muzzle velocity of the rounds) they slowed quickly due to drag passing through the surrounding air. The rounds decelerated, the Tiger accelerated, and the two reunited in the sky, with fatal (for the aircraft) consequences.
 
I'm going to assume the fighter pilot knows more about this than you or I do, unless you, too, are or were a fighter pilot.
I'm a mechanical engineer, by training, visualizing the trajectories of both the bullet 'cloud' and the fighter pilot are pretty much automatic for me. I also looked up the muzzle velocity and velocity decay factors.

While I don't know the training or fighter piloting, I do know the physics and dynamics involved.

Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not I'm qualified to make the statement I did.
 
I'm a mechanical engineer, by training, visualizing the trajectories of both the bullet 'cloud' and the fighter pilot are pretty much automatic for me. I also looked up the muzzle velocity and velocity decay factors.

While I don't know the training or fighter piloting, I do know the physics and dynamics involved.

Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not I'm qualified to make the statement I did.

As this is a special interest of mine I'd like to read a better explaination of your theory as the one you posted was not in the realm of being probable.

Please, explain the velocity decay factors, especially as it relates to the variable ballistic coefficients of projectiles and the effect upon their trajectories.

The facts related to the ballistics of projectiles fired from cannons show that a jet could not simply reduce it's elevation relative to the position where it fired it's cannon and reach the speed necessary to catch the projectiles while maintaining level flight at the reduced elevation as you postulated.

Reading the article and the explaination, the most probable scenario was presented. The one you presented isn't probable to the point of being nearly impossible.

A projectile fired from a firearm or cannon immediately drops relative to the line of bore unless the line of bore is perfectly 90 degrees to the force of gravity and we can discount that because that too is nearly impossible in this situation.

One does not visualize projectile performance, it can be calculated and in fact is within fire control systems using cannons.

What did happen is that the point of aim being above the line of bore requires the barrel be adjusted (moveable or fixed) to allow the point of impact and point of aim to coincide. This happens at two distances past the end of the barrel.

As the projectile follows it's ballistic trajectory it is possible for an aircraft in level flight to fire it's cannon and if the velocity of the aircraft can increase enough it can catch the projectile as it (projectile) crosses the second point of aim continues downward and reaches the second point of impact so long as the projectile's position is within the envelop of the space the aircraft covers. In essence, the aircraft would not have to reduce it's elevation if it could increase it"s velocity enough.

It's actually a very simple appearing curve that shows the projectile's arc (trajectory) but the varying ballistic coefficients insure it is not something a person can visualize, it must calculated or guessed.

The calculations are facts, not opinions or visualizations. Those here who have been trained to employ precision weapons fire, be they firearms or cannon know about this and also know the many variables that affect the trajectories.

Therefore, the scenario you present is improbable to the point of practical impossibility, that being the jet would have to lower its elevation and fly level to catch the projectiles. If the barrel of the cannon was so inaccurately adjusted that could be possible but then that would explain the description of the event the military provided, that it happened as the jet was climbing.



If the projectiles were fin stabilized, then all bets are off.
 
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The Netherlands’ Defense Safety Inspection Agency (Inspectie Veiligheid Defensie) is investigating an incident during a January military exercise in which a Dutch Air Force F-16 was damaged by live fire from a 20-millimeter cannon—its own 20-millimeter cannon. At least one round fired from the aircraft’s M61A1 Vulcan Gatling gun struck the aircraft as it fired at targets on the Dutch military’s Vliehors range on the island of Vlieland, according to a report from the Netherlands’ NOS news service.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that since the aircraft firing on a ground target, that it was in a dive at the time, and only a few thousand feet from the target (under a mile).

Occam's Razor:
The aircraft was hit by a ricocheting projectile.

I'm guessing that the pilot target fixated and failed to monitor his altitude and simply flew too close to the target while squeezing the trigger.

IIRC, the cannon is aimed slightly up and to the right.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that since the aircraft firing on a ground target, that it was in a dive at the time, and only a few thousand feet from the target (under a mile).

Occam's Razor:
The aircraft was hit by a ricocheting projectile.

I'm guessing that the pilot target fixated and failed to monitor his altitude and simply flew too close to the target while squeezing the trigger.

IIRC, the cannon is aimed slightly up and to the right.
Is the slightly right to allow the pilot to fly straight and avoid intersecting with the vertical plane of the trajectory?
 
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