Electronic rider aids making beginner friendly motorcycles?

[TurboTiger]

I've been reading tons of reviews on late model bikes. Quite a few of them now have a full electronic rider aid package as standard equipment, and reviews have nothing but praise that they're all sorted out and they work. ABS has been sorted out and now works. Electronic throttle by wire is here and is now glitch free. Switchable power mapping with the ability to switch down to a lower mode or more gentle throttle solves any throttle twitchiness most high powered bikes have, along with the ability to switch it to sport mode. Traction control with different level settings will keep the rear in line and prevent accidental wheelies.

Of course each manufacturer's implementation will be different, some better than others, some with more control. But a lot of new bikes now come with these options as standard. BMW 1000rr, BMW k1600gt, Ducati Multistrada 1200, Yamaha R1, Kawasaki ZX-10, Triumph Tiger Explorer, Aprilia RSV4 APRC, and my own brand new bike, Ducati Diavel to name a few.

These are all liter bikes or larger. Back in the stone age, where there were no electronic aids, all of these bikes were definitely not recommended for beginners. But with the modern age of electronics, I would say that this isn't the case any more. Now I wouldn't suggest that this would be perfect bikes for someone straight out of a MSF class, but for someone who's been riding for a few months, shaken most of the new jitters and newb mistakes out of their system, these bikes are now competent for them.

Case in point, California Superbike School uses the BMW 1000rr as the track bike rental. Sophisticated traction control which uses a gyroscopic angle sensor, adjustable power mapping, and stellar ABS, has keith code recommending it for beginners too.

My own Ducati Diavel, with it's selectable and programmable riding modes, is very easy to manage. Urban mode, which is limited to 100hp, is very easy to manage, though 100hp is still very fast!

Instead of typical BARF fashion, let's actually put some thought and reason behind your statement. Why you think it is, and why you think it's not.

 

[GPzPop]

none of the top of the line liter bikes with all the e-farkles are beginner bikes

 

[ohio]

IMO, the major dangers for beginners are target fixation and braking into turns (standing up the bike and running it straight). Few beginners are spinning up the rear tire or having trouble keeping the front wheel down (problems for "beginners" on the track, but not for actual first time motorcyclists). None of the current electronic aids help with target fixation or early braking, and if anything help riders go faster which would exacerbate the problem.

Other than ABS, I don't think the current aids help beginners. However, I would like to see someone developing aids that DO help beginners. Like tiered licensing schemes and practical exams that are more than parking lot maneuvering skills.

 

[mel3535]

The new cbr 250 has an abs option, something like that is still the best beginner bike but I do get what you are saying, I was thinking if I upgrade my 250 I would go to 08+ gsxr 600 since it has power modes that limit the power in certain modes.

 

[louemc]

There will be opposing opinions, and someone quoting what a race school says, and what was done in a test in a measured distance...blah blah blah.

Thing is...who do you choose to listen too? Or ..how do you see what is involved?

The street has variables that aren't on a track or a set-up testing area...

A rider could listen to GaryJ..he has posted on this.

 

[stangmx13]

whats an "accidental wheelie"? i have never ridden a literbike, but i cant see there being one single situation on the street where you might find yourself accidentally lofting the front tire. if u got on the gas that hard, u def did it on purpose. anyways, TC doesnt fix that and apparently the anti-wheelie control on the ZX-10R still needs some work.

IMO, the major dangers for beginners are target fixation and braking into turns (standing up the bike and running it straight). Few beginners are spinning up the rear tire or having trouble keeping the front wheel down (problems for "beginners" on the track, but not for actual first time motorcyclists). None of the current electronic aids help with target fixation or early braking, and if anything help riders go faster which would exacerbate the problem.

Other than ABS, I don't think the current aids help beginners. However, I would like to see someone developing aids that DO help beginners. Like tiered licensing schemes and practical exams that are more than parking lot maneuvering skills.

this

 

[2link2]

A switch is a switch and if you disable some sort of "safety function" and forget to turn it back on may leave a newb in a world of hurt. I had a 2010 Duc multistrada and an "opps wrong button" could put a well seasoned rider on his ass.

 

[aszrael1266]

Speaking of accidental wheelie's, the other day I was pulling from a stop light going up a hill and I went to shift into second but my toe didn't engage the shifter. As my hand let the clutch out the bike it did a little wheelie. I can see some circumstances where some one might do a small wheelie by accident.

 

[louemc]

(actually, this is not a laughing matter).

Accidental wheelies can be so quick and violent, it isn't just a wheelie...when you are talkin liter race replica's...it can very easily be a complete loop out...or spoken as..I looped out.

(I've never looped mine...but...don't want to try and convey how close to it...it has happened..and a few whipper snappers have told me they looped theirs).

But, someone that hasn't experienced it...by all means...just rely on your imagination, to rationalize, a little to non action here.

I'll tell ya just how easy it happens, when your not doing anything that even seems aggressive.

Just at a throttle in a low-ish gear that is normal for a steep grade and a speed that is just normal road speed...and having a normal reason to be accelerating some (nothing radical) and go over a rise and fall (smoother than a bump) and the rear tire leaves the pavement for a blink of your eye...and in that time the engine goes from managable RPM to 3 times that RPM and that isn't managable at all, when on the far side of that blink the tire re-hooks up with the pavement.

When the first Gen, ZX-10 was tested by MCN...it made them cry like little girls..It's a beast.
Well that wasn't for nothin folks

 

[sv2007]

whats an "accidental wheelie"? i have never ridden a literbike, but i cant see there being one single situation on the street where you might find yourself accidentally lofting the front tire. if u got on the gas that hard, u def did it on purpose. anyways, TC doesnt fix that and apparently the anti-wheelie control on the ZX-10R still needs some work.



this

My first wheelie was accidentally done on an SV 650 leaving a stop light. So, I can see a liter bike doing it much easier because...

While riding the demo Buell 1125R at Infineon (after getting off a 600), I accidentally wheelied exiting turn 12. It was kind of scary as that was my first and only wheelie while leaned over a bit.

As for the power-level adjustment thing, I think it was marketed for rain riding. Why would you de-power your bike otherwise?

 

[The Smokester]

As for the power-level adjustment thing, I think it was marketed for rain riding. Why would you de-power your bike otherwise?

I don't have this power-level adjustment on my bike, but I wonder about the wisdom of it. Say you switch to rain mode and ride around. Don't all your reflexes become accustomed to the lower power? Then what happens when you switch back to full power? Some unthinking moment occurs and you react like your bike has 2/3 the horsepower it actually now has at the full power setting.

Any experiences with this?

 

[sv2007]

I don't have this power-level adjustment on my bike, but I wonder about the wisdom of it. Say you switch to rain mode and ride around. Don't all your reflexes become accustomed to the lower power? Then what happens when you switch back to full power? Some unthinking moment occurs and you react like your bike has 2/3 the horsepower it actually now has at the full power setting.

Any experiences with this?

I have no experience so I'd like to hear about it too.

But based on my experience of actually riding different bikes, you make the wrong move when you least expects it. For my T-12 accidental wheelie on the 1125R, I was watching my throttle all the time and basically felt very comfortable, then I forget (or is it muscle memory) and whacks it like a 600cc. Maybe the rain mode can give you some margin should your muscle memory kicks in. I.e. when its raining and you open the throttle too quick for traction conditions, a rain mode (reduced power) may save you from a high side.

 

[JPK]

anyways, TC doesnt fix that and apparently the anti-wheelie control on the ZX-10R still needs some work.

The traction control on many bikes does prevent wheelies. It measures the speed difference between the front and rear wheel, and will cut power if it notices a sudden difference in speed.

 

[stangmx13]

i kno what literbikes need to prevent accidental wheelies... anti-clutch-dump-control. that way new riders never have to fear looping their bikes when leaving stoplights.

(actually, this is not a laughing matter).

....

Just at a throttle in a low-ish gear that is normal for a steep grade and a speed that is just normal road speed...and having a normal reason to be accelerating some (nothing radical) and go over a rise and fall (smoother than a bump) and the rear tire leaves the pavement for a blink of your eye...and in that time the engine goes from managable RPM to 3 times that RPM and that isn't managable at all, when on the far side of that blink the tire re-hooks up with the pavement.

When the first Gen, ZX-10 was tested by MCN...it made them cry like little girls..It's a beast.
Well that wasn't for nothin folks

wheelie-ing after landing a jump on a literbike, awesome . def reasonable, i really didnt expect anyone to say anything like this.

 

[Gary856]

Beginner's bikes should have upright, neutral, user friendly ergos. Low clipons and aggressive ergo aren't good for learning the basics.

Beginner's bikes also need to be cheap, preferrably, and handle low speed drops well. Fancy bodywork isn't good.

 

[rritterson]

IMO, the major dangers for beginners are target fixation and braking into turns (standing up the bike and running it straight). Few beginners are spinning up the rear tire or having trouble keeping the front wheel down (problems for "beginners" on the track, but not for actual first time motorcyclists). None of the current electronic aids help with target fixation or early braking, and if anything help riders go faster which would exacerbate the problem.

Agreed. The biggest dangers to new riders are mental, not too much bike. Too much or too twitchy of a bike amplifies mistakes, but it doesn't cause them.

I like to use the analogy Keith Code does. You have 100 dollars of mental attention at each moment. Try to spend more than you have and you are in a danger zone, waiting to crash. New riders are spending 80 dollars just trying to maintain the controls. After a while, when you get good muscle memory, you are spending 10 dollars or less on controls and the rest on situational awareness.

liter bikes are designed so that control input = OUTPUT. This in on purpose so that you can stop easily and from high speed, accelerate quickly, etc. My supermoto, to use one example is more like input = output. Because you have to be so aware of your control inputs, you spend more of your 100 dollars keeping the bike in control, lest you accidentally add too much throttle.

Electronic aids are designed to take the edges out and help you keep control in extremes. That's not where new riders go wrong. A newbie on a liter bike is struggling just to keep it riding.

 

[TurboTiger]

Traction control keeps wheelies in check, not the throttle maps.
On the Diavel, you get three throttle maps. Sport mode gives all 162hp with a very quick throttle. Touring gives you all 162hp but softens the throttle, easier for people not used to a quick throttle ala liter sport bikes, and urban mode which gives you a softer throttle and only 100hp.
Liter bikes can wheelie just by rolling on the throttle quickly in lower gears. They have so much power, you need to be real careful not to flip the bike over when this happens. You can also do this by giving too much throttle and releasing the clutch too fast.

 

[TurboTiger]

I don't have this power-level adjustment on my bike, but I wonder about the wisdom of it. Say you switch to rain mode and ride around. Don't all your reflexes become accustomed to the lower power? Then what happens when you switch back to full power? Some unthinking moment occurs and you react like your bike has 2/3 the horsepower it actually now has at the full power setting.

Any experiences with this?

Traction control would be a good safety net for this. Touring mode on the diavel gives full hp but softer throttle. Provides a good step to get used to before switching to sport mode which gives full power but a twitchy throttle. If you want to ride a liter bike, eventually you'll have to make the jump and just get used to the power.

 

[sv2007]

...
Instead of typical BARF fashion, let's actually put some thought and reason behind your statement. Why you think it is, and why you think it's not.

What you said makes a lot of sense to me and I completely agree with you. Assuming that a beginner don't mind dropping a more expensive bike, not just the user-friendly liter bikes that you mentioned, I used to say that the new R6 makes a great beginner bike.

Somehow, there's a large amount of BARF folks who think the best beginner bike is some obsolete piece of '80's tech and barely makes enough power to move anybody over 150lb sitting on it.

I believe that the best beginner's bike is loaded with technology that help create an easier ride environment, and with my new experience, I think it is one of these large scooters (e.g. like the one in my avatar) but with abs and other features.

 

[TurboTiger]

What you said makes a lot of sense to me and I completely agree with you. Assuming that a beginner don't mind dropping a more expensive bike, not just the user-friendly liter bikes that you mentioned, I used to say that the new R6 makes a great beginner bike.

After trying out a r6 fresh out of MSF, I have to agree with you except for the quick throttle. And only if you have enough self control to keep the revs down until your skills increase. But once you get used to the quick throttle, it's a fairly easy bike to ride. It actually does not have that much power when the revs are kept low. I think my sv650 has more power at those revs than the r6 does.