EV's as legit performance cars

[asdfghwy]

Taycan owner buys a Tesla after a drag race. Is that real?
[YouTube]gfWNRyqhRRM[/YouTube]

if you want to trade a well built luxury vehicle for one that has quality control issues like shitty paint or weird door gaps, by all means. I would take a porsche built vehicle over a tesla every damn time

 

[ScarySpikes]

The Lucid is interesting. The rear trunk situation is a little funky though. But the cabin is super roomy and I swear it may have been designed more to sit in the back than the front.

Not sure how this thread detoured to unions. But I was in one for a minute (IAM&AW), and after that experience, my stance is that I never want to be in one again.

I made a joke about Telsa and Lucid not being unionized and some folks got offended.

The funny thing is, I grew up watching negotiations between management and labor for sheet metal contractors in Utah. My dad negotiated on management's side, and I met a lot of business owners and upper management from various companies. What I learned from watching that
for years and talking to those folks was that if it weren't for the union, management's profit seeking behavior would lead to workers getting killed on the job, as well as lawsuits for shoddy and rushed work. I've never really been surprised that Tesla has issues with poor QC, bad paint, panel gaps, and an overhyped, broken autopilot feature that sometimes crashes into things.

Anyway, back on subject, I think that the Lucid is a cool car. I really hope that they are able to build it at a quality level that justifies the price tag instead of overpromising and underdelivering like Tesla tends to.

 

[Killroy1999]

if you want to trade a well built luxury vehicle for one that has quality control issues like shitty paint or weird door gaps, by all means. I would take a porsche built vehicle over a tesla every damn time

Yeah, whatever floats your boat. While I think its overblown by people that have no interest in Tesla, Tesla should improve fit and finish.

The situation does remind me of Enzo:

My take is that Tesla's mission is to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport . Panel gaps appear to be a secondary mission . I'm too frugal to buy one, but my dad did and I told him to not accept delivery unless it's perfect to you because it can be annoying to have Tesla fix it later. Again, they are focusing on the mission.

I think Lucid is cool. More compelling EVs the better, IMHO. Range numbers are a little fishy, but we will see.

 

[mrzuzzo]

I made a joke about Telsa and Lucid not being unionized and some folks got offended.

The funny thing is, I grew up watching negotiations between management and labor for sheet metal contractors in Utah. My dad negotiated on management's side, and I met a lot of business owners and upper management from various companies. What I learned from watching that
for years and talking to those folks was that if it weren't for the union, management's profit seeking behavior would lead to workers getting killed on the job, as well as lawsuits for shoddy and rushed work. I've never really been surprised that Tesla has issues with poor QC, bad paint, panel gaps, and an overhyped, broken autopilot feature that sometimes crashes into things.

Anyway, back on subject, I think that the Lucid is a cool car. I really hope that they are able to build it at a quality level that justifies the price tag instead of overpromising and underdelivering like Tesla tends to.

Ah yes yes, just like those super amazing Chevy Bolts which spontaneously combust. Pure union workmanship right there, can't get any better than that!

 

[TheRobSJ]

Anyway, back on subject, I think that the Lucid is a cool car. I really hope that they are able to build it at a quality level that justifies the price tag instead of overpromising and underdelivering like Tesla tends to.

They’ve had a “store” in the Valley Fair mall here for the past year or so. Didn’t drive it of course, but they gave me a full tour of the Air and the guy even had engineering level knowledge of it. And he had plenty of questions for me as well to see how the Lucid compared to EV/hybrid cars I have worked on. And yeah while it was a prototype show car, so of course it won’t have any gross build quality issues, I can tell that their fit and finish on production cars will be better than a Model S.

 

[Mike95060]

I can tell that their fit and finish on production cars will be better than a Model S.

No snark, how can you be so sure of this? Like prototype ---> mass production are worlds apart. What did you see that points to better build quality than a model S? (I know you know your shit so I'm asking to learn.)

 

[TheRobSJ]

Yeah, whatever floats your boat. While I think its overblown by people that have no interest in Tesla, Tesla should improve fit and finish.

Not really overblown at all. While it’s true I pretty much have no interest in Tesla, I still see what I see. And what I see is the occasional anecdotal report on an internet forum that their particular Model 3 or whatever is totally fine and they don’t know why Tesla has such a bad reputation for quality, but then in my professional life where I have seen dozens of Model S/3/X get traded into my dealership over the past year. And what I see on them is exactly the same stuff that is being overblown. Not a single one of them hasn’t had awful paint. Many of them had terrible panel gaps and line ups. A couple had major electrical issues that we had to have the car towed to Tesla and take months to get back.

 

[TheRobSJ]

No snark, how can you be so sure of this? Like prototype ---> mass production are worlds apart. What did you see that points to better build quality than a model S? (I know you know your shit so I'm asking to learn.)

Just a combination of how the materials look and all the features. Even the latest Model S with its updated interior still doesn’t look all the premium once you get past the giant center screen. The Lucid has a ridiculous driver centric dashboard screen (like the Taycan), plus the giant center screen as well. Material choices for the door cards and dash like this strangely premium looking linen. Where there is leather, it’s nicer feeling than Tesla’s.

On the outside, like I said the trunk is pretty wierd. But like the hood, it’s just one giant piece. You see a lot more German stuff coming with these giant one piece hoods, almost eliminating the need for front fenders. They use these because they get more consistency with gaps at assembly (not so much later if the thing is wrecked and the body shop didn’t get the uniframe completely straight). The door panels seem to be pretty slab sided, which will be easier to line up compared to ones with complex character lines. Paint? Well…they would have to be painting outside in the desert to be worse than Tesla. The fact the Tesla is subject to California’s absolutely shitty paint requirements is an uphill battle they’ll never win.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Ah yes yes, just like those super amazing Chevy Bolts which spontaneously combust. Pure union workmanship right there, can't get any better than that!

The Chevy Bolt uses battery packs from LG Chem. LG Chem produces batteries for GM, Audi, Ford, VW, Porsche, Hyundai, and Tesla, among others. So far, GM and Hyundai have recalled their EVs due to manufacturing issues with the battery packs causing the cars to catch fire. Tesla has also had issues with vehicles catching fire, which may or may not be related to battery manufacturing issues, but they have been able to avoid a recall so far. EVs are still a new technology, early issues like this suck but they aren't surprising.

Anyway, LG Chem, who produces all of these batteries, is currently non-union. GM has expressed they want workers for future US based joint ventures with LG Chem to be represented by the UAW. (https://www.reuters.com/business/au...oned-represent-workers-battery-jv-2021-05-25/)

They’ve had a “store” in the Valley Fair mall here for the past year or so. Didn’t drive it of course, but they gave me a full tour of the Air and the guy even had engineering level knowledge of it. And he had plenty of questions for me as well to see how the Lucid compared to EV/hybrid cars I have worked on. And yeah while it was a prototype show car, so of course it won’t have any gross build quality issues, I can tell that their fit and finish on production cars will be better than a Model S.

Maybe. Making prototypes that fit perfectly together is much easier than mass producing cars that fit perfectly. Still, they have a better chance than Tesla at making cars fit together well because they don't have to deal with Elon Musk being in charge of anything.

 

[Climber]

Union workers sure made great American cars back in the late 80's and 90's...oh, wait.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Union workers sure made great American cars back in the late 80's and 90's...oh, wait.

What happened in the 80's and 90's?

 

[Robert R1]

The lucid cars are not nice looking to me. Reminds me of Buicks for some reason.

I’m not sure those looks will sell at 140k price point.

 

[Killroy1999]

Some issues with UAW:

Second UAW president sentenced to 28 months in prison in union corruption probe

Corrupt UAW leader Pearson sentenced for racketeering scandal

80% of NUMMI Workers Upset With The UAW

 

[Climber]

What happened in the 80's and 90's?

The only thing that kept the American Auto industry afloat was the Buy American (even if they are crap) mentality through the 80's and 90's. The American cars were absolute crap back then and broke down all the time. Japanese and European cars were far superior.

 

[SM610]

Maybe. Making prototypes that fit perfectly together is much easier than mass producing cars that fit perfectly. Still, they have a better chance than Tesla at making cars fit together well because they don't have to deal with Elon Musk being in charge of anything.

I would suggest that Elon isnt standing there on the production line saying " thats good enough..." . But he certainly didnt come from the car industry, and might not have what we would consider car industry standards.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Some issues with UAW:

Second UAW president sentenced to 28 months in prison in union corruption probe

Corrupt UAW leader Pearson sentenced for racketeering scandal

80% of NUMMI Workers Upset With The UAW

Yet workers protected by the UAW still have better wages, better worker protections, and better benefits than non-unionized workers in the same industry.

You actually are proving 2 points. First, even a bad union with corruption issues is better for workers than no unions at all. Second, unions are actually policed for the issues of corruption that have been brought up as an argument against them.

I know that you like Tesla a lot. How caught up are you on the details of the court case 12711-VCS, which is the class action lawsuit Tesla motors stockholders are bringing against Tesla and Elon Musk personally for their actions in acquiring SolarCity.

The only thing that kept the American Auto industry afloat was the Buy American (even if they are crap) mentality through the 80's and 90's. The American cars were absolute crap back then and broke down all the time. Japanese and European cars were far superior.

Right. So American car firms, which were building heavy, unreliable, large vehicles, was beaten by companies like Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Nissan, BMW, VW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, etc.

Do you know something all of the companies, the American companies as well as the European and Japanese companies, have in common?

 

[Killroy1999]

What happened in the 80's and 90's?

Circa that time, GM and Ford were going to Japan to study the "Toyota Production System" now more generically known as Lean Engineering & Manufacturing. Anyone working at NUMMI knew about that because of Toyota. "Hey, go 5-S your work place" was common.

Around that time, GM asked Toyota, "Where did you learn this"

Toyota's response was "Are you kidding, I learn from you guys (Ford, GM)"

Toyota believes in providing wages good enough that the employees don't need a union.

Yet workers protected by the UAW still have better wages, better worker protections, and better benefits than non-unionized workers in the same industry.

You actually are proving 2 points. First, even a bad union with corruption issues is better for workers than no unions at all. Second, unions are actually policed for the issues of corruption that have been brought up as an argument against them.

I guess there is a silver lining to union leaders getting jail time for corruption.

Does UAW have better wages?

The good thing about UAW is that it does put pressure on the companies for higher wages, but those companies can just pay those wages without the middle man of the union and its a win for both the employee and the company.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Circa that time, GM and Ford were going to Japan to study the "Toyota Production System" now more generically known as Lean Engineering & Manufacturing. Anyone working at NUMMI knew about that because of Toyota. "Hey, go 5-S your work place" was common.

Around that time, GM asked Toyota, "Where did you learn this"

Toyota's response was "Are you kidding, I learn from you guys (Ford, GM)"

Toyota believes in providing wages good enough that the employees don't need a union.



I guess there is a silver lining to union leaders getting jail time for corruption.

Does UAW have better wages?

The good thing about UAW is that it does put pressure on the companies for higher wages, but those companies can just pay those wages without the middle man of the union and its a win for both the employee and the company.

Toyota is unionized. Toyotas unions have worked as a federation since 1972.

What Elon musk did there is called lying. He does it a lot, even in court, which is why I asked if you were up to date with the court case I mentioned. Tesla has lower average wages then Ford and GM. Despite one of their major factories being in the bay area.

 

[lizard]

FWIW, I saw this the other day, Polestar 2.

I was not inspired.

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[lizard]

Lucid’s 520-mile range certified by EPA

Article: https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/g33969978/lucid-motors-reveals-dream-edition-air/

Pretty ladies not included.
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