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For those who mount their own tires ... important!

pvd said:
good work skippo. it took you some time but you came up with just enough BS to make it look like you arn't on crack, but you are.

1. regarding why position the lightest part of the tire over the valve stem vs. any other position, you never answered. why? you have no answer.

2. regarding balancing the rim, then the tire. it all sounds great and i belive that the tires spin on the rims when at extremes, but take a look at what you are saying: a balanced wheel becomes an unbalanced wheel in both cases. do you have a way of showing that one is worse than the other? no? i didn't think so. and anyway this would be a problem for all of us pushing a 200+HP motorcycle to it's limits, right.

when you are in a hole, stop digging.
Click to expand...

I hate to call both people wrong here but there seems to be a lacking notion here.

First off, manufactures ADVICE is just fucking that. Advice. It's not LAW....

YOU HAVE TO DO, WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO - TO MAKE IT RIGHT. Period, in the end, end of discussion.

Skippy - If your racers have a problem spinning tires on the rim and it's a big deal, seems like the engineers are SLACKERS.

As for wheel balancing, who cares. If it needs weight it needs weight. We balance to make up for tolerances durring manufacture. Get over it.
 
Sane_Man said:
Al Gore invented the Internet.
Click to expand...

And going to save the world with his new movie.



Ok about the spinning tires. Why don't us this high tech trick drags racers have been using for years? I've seen a dozen a tire hold 1500+ hp.
mrg-4318_w.jpg


Please tell Dunlap to pay me small bills in a black gym bag.:p
 
It seems to me that you're both right.
I remember having a conversation with old Bill with the R1 that had nearly 200 thousand miles on it.
He was happy about finding the heavy spot on his rim and being able to mount the tire without any weights at all.
As long as the tire doesn't spin, which I don't think any of us are going to be doing on the street anyway, there would be no weights to worry about falling off or anything...right?
I think the actual point that Pete was trying to make was that where the valve is IS NOT always the heaviest part of the rim.
If you find the heaviest section of the wheel and put the lightest portion of the tire there instead of at the valve, you can get away with less weight or sometimes, none at all.

Right?

:teeth
 
daventura said:
As long as the tire doesn't spin, which I don't think any of us are going to be doing on the street anyway...
I think the actual point that Pete was trying to make was that where the valve is IS NOT always the heaviest part of the rim.
If you find the heaviest section of the wheel and put the lightest portion of the tire there instead of at the valve, you can get away with less weight or sometimes, none at all.
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and for saying such a thing, skippy felt he had to give an unprovoked smackdown, even though he was totally wrong on every count.

isn't it funny when daventura is a calming, peaceful presence?
 
I've seen Chuck Graves spin the rim on a GPz 550 during a race, dunlop guy never thought to leave em dry.
 
I am still trying to figure out what is magical about the location of the valve if it is not weight involved or are some people just assuming that the heaviest part of the wheel is where the valve is?
 
budbandit said:
...are some people just assuming that the heaviest part of the wheel is where the valve is?
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Yes. People assume (and in fact are TOLD by the manu's) the heavy part of the wheel is the stem, and that isn't always the case. That's *all* pvd was saying in his original post.

I completely agree with pvd's original point (and I AM an engineer :laughing) and I follow the same practice...at least when my tires have dots. :rolleyes Does it REALLY make a difference in the grand scheme of my commuter/weekend fun/trackday wheels/tires? Probably not. Do I use less weight? Yes. And that means I have to buy less sticks of weight. :thumbup

I'm afraid this thread is a case of people responding negatively to the poster before attempting to contemplate and understand the content and context of his post

Which was SPOT FUCKING ON, I might add.
 
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I agree. PVD has many good points to raise, and to the general audience that he speaks to here, can do alot of good.

I'm getting tired of seeing people blast others for passing on information that is helpful to some of us, that are above the "newb" curve.

just a side note... "Road force" balancing... :laughing You go ahead and put that dot anywhere you want on that rim... you'll end up with the same amount of weight anyways. :teeth

windex said:
Ok about the spinning tires. Why don't us this high tech trick drags racers have been using for years? I've seen a dozen a tire hold 1500+ hp.
mrg-4318_w.jpg

Please tell Dunlap to pay me small bills in a black gym bag.:p [/B]
Click to expand...

That does work, however, you ever see a drag racer balance a rear rim with a slick on it?
 
perhaps i can take some of the tension out of the room by asking a newb question - how important is balancing a tire for normal street riding, anyway? i just mounted a rear tire on my 99 vfr, and didn't bother to balance it. i use it mostly for commuting and one day/week of moderate twisty stuff.

am i just asking to be thrown from the bike, pitched down a ravine, paralyzed, and slowly eaten by ants over a 5 day period?
 
ianian28 said:
perhaps i can take some of the tension out of the room by asking a newb question - how important is balancing a tire for normal street riding, anyway? i just mounted a rear tire on my 99 vfr, and didn't bother to balance it. i use it mostly for commuting and one day/week of moderate twisty stuff.

am i just asking to be thrown from the bike, pitched down a ravine, paralyzed, and slowly eaten by ants over a 5 day period?
Click to expand...

There was a Barfer who thought the same as you a couple of years ago, who mounted a tire on his dual-sport without balancing it. He got bit when he got it up to highway speed on I-80, I believe. He went into a bad tank slapper because of the unbalanced wheel. You should be able to find it in a search.
 
Skippo

you really have no idea what you are talking about on any level. for someone that professes to be some kind of tire expert because you change tires for fast guys, you lack even basic scientific skills or understanding to filter BS from fact. you can shove your "i'm an AMA guy" up your ass. 4 years on the road around all the top tuners and you still have no idea how they do it do you? you are a service mechanic.

I did the math for your argument about tires spinning on rims. the math says that it makes absolutely no difference which balancing or mounting technique that you use with regard to tire spin, and your way makes the wheel heavier every time. I don't have to be in the AMA or the motorcycle industry to use basic high school physics. do you know what a 'moment' is? obviously not or you would have fact checked you BS before you spouted off like some kind of preacher.

i have enclose a copy of the math so that you can see who somebody with a high school deploma solves a problem.

the problems that you speak of, about spinning tire being a problem for fast guys, are tire/install issues, clown. either the tire is lame or, god forbid, the monkey that mounted it is. so which is it?

skippy, i actully like you and think that you are cool. but you have it in for me on this board and i'm a little sick of it. you keep saying that i have no idea what i am talking about on whatever topic is at hand, yet on this issue, that you should know more than anyone else on the board, you got clowned by me.

i did not start this crap. i posted a nice litte info page on the position for a mounted tire. it was very basic in every way and made no mention of you and it was not counter to anything you were saying in any other thread at hand. but you came at me hard attacking me personally. i am happy to have disagreement about anything i say, but use reason and facts, don't kill the messenger.

wheelbalancing.gif


tirespin.gif


tirespinmath.gif



edit - improved chart, added tire spin graph and math.
 
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pvd, put some units in your mathematics. although i get the vector math, it's hard for this mechanical engineer to follow.

but, i do get the general idea of what your trying to lay down...if the tire spins 10 degrees on the rim, it's no more "out of balance" no matter what method was used to balance the rim/tire combo. 10 degrees isn't much, though, and i could see how it may not cause much of a difference. could you do the math for a spin of between 90 and 180 degrees?
 
I think PVDs got something.

I think Skippy has something also.


If I had to get a wheel tire combo balanced for a road racing celebrity, I think Skippy makes a lot of sense.

Assuming that I understand this correctly;

the wheel is balanced.
the wheel/tire combo is balanced again.
the tire may spin on the rim enough to through the combo out of balance.
the out of balance state is not as bad because the wheel is still balanced.

If I had to balance a wheel/tire for a non racer then I believe PVDs method is sound, however I've never seen anyone take the time to do this (as logical as it is).
 
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