HAND SIGNALS ARE ILLEGAL ?????

[bigdogdre]

I have respect for all, untill proven otherwise.
I treat cops/firemen and such with great respect.
I admit my wrongs and take my beatings.
I get a ticket about 10-5 years apart and just do school.

Facts are as below (I did read above sticky post).
cited # 22349 (a) basic speeding i believe.
cited # 22110 (a) using hand signals (as he is pulling me over).
Where = San Jose on hiway 85 going north just past almaden rd (costsco).
Bike = Hayabusa
road = flat/clear and straight.

He said, "you were doing 84 mph and I have it on lidar" (spelling???).
I said, "I think you got the wrong vehicle. Maybe that lidar thing was showing that BMW"S speed?. He denied any other cars being around me or in his way when he was trying to get at me.

After that it was him asking for stuff and giving me directions (all good and cool). I gave him all and knelt down on one knee waiting and not moving as i am 6ft 3 inches and 285 lbs. He was small and I just wanted no problems.

scenario:
Rolling down hiway 85.
In the fast lane (#4 lane I think). I feel safest there away from cars.
2 cars approach fast, so I move over to the right one lane.
They blow by me and the first car (minivan) cuts right in front of me as the BMW was almost pushing him out of the way.
The BMW passes him in the fast lane (still).
Right about here they all see the cop & the minivan slams on his brakes in front of me.
There are cars to the right so I go back to the fast lane (#4) as those two cars are still going fatser than me and pulling away.
Officer is on the left shoulder and he starts rolling into traffic (fast lane).
I tell myself this should be easy as the BMW is clearly pulling all of us.
The officer has to let the BMW by to slow way down and get me. The minivan was also still ahead of me but to the right.
He lights me up.
I slowed down and started the almighty drift to the right.
I kind of turn on seat and use hand signal (left one) to signal/ask do I pull over with shriugging shoulders. The officer "speaks" to me and guides me farther up and "off the freeway".
Camden is the next exit so I think I will go to the "pollo chicken" lot right there.
He stops me prior to the intersection which I think is still the hiway but I adjust to the "voice".
Again the rest is basic and mellow as stated above (he ask & I comply with a yes sir).

#1 question Is it illegal to use a hand signal??????
I know cars react much better to a large arm pointing versus a little flash.
I thought the motorcycle DMV book even demonstates it.

#2 question Can a bike be picked up on lidar behind 2 cars or could the lidar been for the bmw but he gave it to me?? (for whatever reason??)

One thing I did not like was he denied any cars (bmw and Minivan) being in his way when this all started. I asked him again after signing the ticket and he then agreed there was a were other cars ahead of me that he had to let by before getting to me.

I would just do school like before but not sure on the fine for the hand signal thing and may go to court for both if it make sense and this is may help.

I think I showed respect then and now.
I will go home and return to see the answers later.

The officer may have just been aggressive as He lite somebody else up at the intersection (I thought - now what) that is only 10 ft from our stopping point.

Maybe he is just doing his job but nobody I know ever heard of illegal hand signals (especially when pulling somebody over) and being able to radar a bike behind 2 cars (and passing the bike). It could have Benn my BARF salute sticker he did not like

Thanks in advance for any feedback or help (or the mandatory BARF bashing to follow from some types)

LONG LIVE BARF: twofinger

 

[Junkie]

It's not that hand signals are illegal, it's that they aren't sufficient. You can use both turn signal and hand signal if you want, but you need to use your turn signal.

 

[monstermonster]

CVC 22110.

(a) The signals required by this chapter shall be given by signal lamp, unless a vehicle is not required to be and is not equipped with turn signals. Drivers of vehicles not required to be and not equipped with turn signals shall give a hand and arm signal when required by this chapter.

(b) In the event the signal lamps become inoperable while driving, hand and arm signals shall be used in the manner required in this chapter.

Amended Sec. 12, Ch. 1008, Stats. 1999. Effective January 1, 2000.

 

[CHUM]

It's not that hand signals are illegal, it's that they aren't sufficient. You can use both turn signal and hand signal if you want, but you need to use your turn signal.

huh??.....i am under the impression that hand signals all by their lonesome are sufficient/legal/OK.....almost 100% positive on that one.....

 

[Razel]

Search on turn signals, it's been covered here before. You need to be using the turn signals (with or without hand signals) if the bike is equipped with them. They have to be installed on the bike if the bike is manufactured after January 1973.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc24951.htm (4)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22110.htm (a)

The second one is the one that's telling you you have to use a turn signal unless you can legally (24951) not have them installed.

 

[motorman4life]

huh??.....i am under the impression that hand signals all by their lonesome are sufficient/legal/OK.....almost 100% positive on that one.....

Read 22110 CVC, just above your post. The law seems to be quite clear.

As for LIDAR getting your speed when you are in and among traffic. Yes, a LIDAR can pick you out in a crowd. If the officer can see you in their sight, they can generally target you. They only need a target the size of a tennis ball at 600'. So, if they can target you, then can lock your speed.

I'd imagine you could get the 22110 violation dismissed in the interest of justice. You did not mention your speed. So, I'll assume since you didn't deny you were speeding, that you were. It sounds like you feel that if you were passed, then even if you were speeding, the minivan or BMV "deserved" the ticket and you didn't. Is that correct?

 

[Ironbutt]

Hmm... I'm not arguing the legality of hand signals.. but I've used them explicitly for years.. (since my bad wreck where the car didn't see the tiny blinking turn signal light that was washed out in the sunlight..) and have not ever been pulled over for it or ticked for it, whilst pulled over.

So.. seems like more of the selective enforcement we know and love and that's not a knock on anyone.. it is what it is.. you got caught.. somehow you stood out.

We're in the midst of a California budget crunch.

 

[motorman4life]

Hmm... I'm not arguing the legality of hand signals.. but I've used them explicitly for years.. (since my bad wreck where the car didn't see the tiny blinking turn signal light that was washed out in the sunlight..) and have not ever been pulled over for it or ticked for it, whilst pulled over.

So.. seems like more of the selective enforcement we know and love and that's not a knock on anyone.. it is what it is.. you got caught.. somehow you stood out.

We're in the midst of a California budget crunch.

It has nothing to do with a budget crunch. If you are using handsignals in conjunction with the flashing signals, then it is just fine. People really are not looking for hand signals nowadays. If someone in a minivan with rear-tinted windows in the #1 lane and I am in the #2 lane on my bike and you want to lanechange into my path and I am at your 4 or 5.. how am I going to see a hand signal anyhow? I'm not. I'd be lucky to pick up your blinkers.. I'm more likely to catch a head bob, assuming I can see their head, when they check over their shoulder prior to the lane change (another thing fewer and fewer people do nowadays).

If you want to use hand signals along with your blinkers, that is fine. But, you need to comply with 22110(a) CVC.

 

[NorCalBusa]

MM4L- yield and get to the right ASAP when dem red lights are a'coming- but does that emergency approach "allow" a driver to bust an intersection stop sign or red light to yield? Is a driver exempt from any CVC to yield right away? Is that codified?

 

[motorman4life]

The law says that you must yield to the right and stop when safe. It also says that if you are within an intersection, that you must immediately exit the intersection. A friend's mom was cited in SF for FTY to EV (ambulance). She had entered an intersection (on a green) before hearing any siren. The ambulance hit their manual siren once (like a "blip") while she was in the intersection and she looked to the right and saw their emergency lights and that they were almost on top of her and were braking to avoid broadsiding her. Once she saw it approaching, she continued through the intersection (it was a large intersection) and pulled over to the immediate right (the taxi and bus lane) and stopped (as required by law). She did not know they were making a right turn and apparently her movement blocked their intended path although she was well clear of the intersection. Traffic in the other lanes was stopped and the taxi lane was wide open, so apparently the ambulance intended to use that lane. They laid on the airhorn and she did not know what to do. She started crying. A cop pulled up and ordered her to pull forward about 20' into an open loading zone space, then he cited her for CVC 21806.

Read it:

CVC 21806. Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle which is sounding a siren and which has at least one lighted lamp exhibiting red light that is visible, under normal atmospheric conditions, from a distance of 1,000 feet to the front of the vehicle, the surrounding traffic shall, except as otherwise directed by a traffic officer, do the following:
(a) (1) Except as required under paragraph (2), the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to the right-hand edge or curb of the highway, clear of any intersection, and thereupon shall stop and remain stopped until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed.
(2) A person driving a vehicle in an exclusive or preferential use lane shall exit that lane immediately upon determining that the exit can be accomplished with reasonable safety.
(b) The operator of every street car shall immediately stop the street car, clear of any intersection, and remain stopped until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed.
(c) All pedestrians upon the highway shall proceed to the nearest curb or place of safety and remain there until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed.
---------------

She fought it via TBD and won. It probably helped that I diagrammed the intersection and wrote the TBD for her. She probably should have stopped IN the intersection, but had no way of knowing they were turning right. So then, she should have stayed in her lane, but she knew she was required to pull to the right and stop, so she did.

 

[NorCalBusa]

So if Mrs. MM4L was stopped first in line at a red light, lane #1 of let's say 3, and here comes the wambulance, she's good to bust the red light/intersection to comply? I'd think not to stop in the middle- directions are to go to the curb or edge & clear of the intersection.

 

[Razel]

Flashing lights behind me, no siren, at a red? I'd wait. Siren running? I'd go as soon as it was safe (like cross street traffic stopped for the lights and siren) or at least make a "safe" attempt to clear a path. Easy on a bike, not so much with a cage.
Might be the wrong thing to do, but that'd be my take on it.

 

[Junkie]

So, hand signals are not enough to be sufficient. Are they enough to get you a ticket for signaling to do something you don't then do? If so, that's not right IMO. They should either be enough to count (always) or little enough to never count.

 

[motorman4life]

So if Mrs. MM4L was stopped first in line at a red light, lane #1 of let's say 3, and here comes the wambulance, she's good to bust the red light/intersection to comply? I'd think not to stop in the middle- directions are to go to the curb or edge & clear of the intersection.

Wambulance.. coming from which direction?

 

[NorCalBusa]

I meant coming up from behind, but that's an intriguing perspective- as the law doesn't differentiate the public's requirement respective of the approach path.

 

[masameet]

But if the ambulance is on an emergency run, it's probably activated that whatchamacallit sensor now affixed to most traffic intersection overhead signals. So the red light would now be green and the blocking motorist would be good to move over to allow the ambulance through. Unless of course the blocking motorist is too much of a blockhead or too confused to know what to do.

Not that intriguing after all.

 

[motorman4life]

I meant coming up from behind, but that's an intriguing perspective- as the law doesn't differentiate the public's requirement respective of the approach path.

If it were approaching from behind, I would expect her to put on her right signal and make an immediate right turn, when safe. She should pull far enough forward on the side street to accommodate any other vehicles that follow her lead.

If it were oncoming or cross traffic, I would expect her to remain stopped and not enter until it is safe/lawful to proceed.

 

[NorCalBusa]

But if the ambulance is on an emergency run, it's probably activated that whatchamacallit sensor now affixed to most traffic intersection overhead signals. So the red light would now be green and the blocking motorist would be good to move over to allow the ambulance through. Unless of course the blocking motorist is too much of a blockhead or too confused to know what to do.

Not that intriguing after all.

Y- Opticom's are on less than 10% of the intersections in Kalifornia, and in an even smaller percentage of emergency vehicles.

 

[NorCalBusa]

If it were approaching from behind, I would expect her to put on her right signal and make an immediate right turn, when safe. She should pull far enough forward on the side street to accommodate any other vehicles that follow her lead.

If it were oncoming or cross traffic, I would expect her to remain stopped and not enter until it is safe/lawful to proceed.

I hear ya loud and clear (and agree)- but that sure ain't even close to what the what the law says.

I think I'd just start crying too.

 

[bojangle]

So, hand signals are not enough to be sufficient. Are they enough to get you a ticket for signaling to do something you don't then do? If so, that's not right IMO. They should either be enough to count (always) or little enough to never count.

But hand signals are part of the vehicle code. They can be used in conjunction with a turn signal (stop light), can be used if your vehicle is older than required to have the signals, or it can be used if you have broken turn or stop signals.

So yeah, improper use can also be cited for.

Note: If your turn signals or break lights are broken, you still need to fix them or face being pulled over/fix it ticket, etc. But using hand signals could prevent you from getting a moving violation in the mean time.