Harley-Davidson is in a funk it might never recover from

[ob1ventura]

on a low power, low maintenance bike like my NC I really don't see why they don't go belt. I know it makes gearing changes more difficult but I'd happily deal with that in exchange for approximately zero maintenance.

What do you consider low power. Belts hold up fine under the load of over 100 ft/lbs pushing a 700# bike and rider.

Harleys are very low maintenance what with no valve adjustments, belt drive etc.

I send mine to dealer every 5K miles. Inspections are very necessary because belt drivee can leave you stranded if it fails.

I have two Harleys, one with over 50K miles and belt is still going strong. Other than routine maintenance and wear items, I have had zero problems for over ten years.

My Softail has been all over the West, including Canada on long roadtrips. It's a very good and comfortable road bike.

The best thing about Harleys, is that most models can be configured to the Rider for the best and most comfortable ergonomics. When I ride my son's bikes I can hardly wait to get off of them because ergonomically they're terrible for me. Good for them, though!

What Caddywumpus said. Have 120k on one belt that has been chewed up a bit from a rock that got stuck in the pulley. The other dyna has 70k on the clock and the belt is holding up fine to over 100 hp and over 100 ft/ lbs.

Spend a day in the garage and any dyna should put out well above 110 hp and over 100 ft/lbs. Sure it's about 100 lbs more than the GS that will never see anything but asphalt but has more torque and is easier / less expensive to maintain.

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

What do you consider low power. Belts hold up fine under the load of over 100 ft/lbs pushing a 700# bike and rider.



What Caddywumpus said. Have 120k on one belt that has been chewed up a bit from a rock that got stuck in the pulley. The other dyna has 70k on the clock and the belt is holding up fine to over 100 hp and over 100 ft/ lbs.

Spend a day in the garage and any dyna should put out well above 110 hp and over 100 ft/lbs. Sure it's about 100 lbs more than the GS that will never see anything but asphalt but has more torque and is easier / less expensive to maintain.

Your Dyna doesn't compare to the GS beyond both having two wheels. Most Harley baggers won't leave the county they're parked in, let alone multi state journeys, so mocking the GS as a highway machine is kind of a glass house situation. Again, the belt drive has applications, and they work well. The fact that you have to remove the swingarm on a touring bike to replace them is not ideal. I swapped my FXR to chain because I was uninterested in that task when the belt failed. Changing a belt on a Dyna is not much fun, either.
Swapping a belt on my Uly is not great, but it's a damn sight easier than any Harley. Still, that bike kills a belt in 50k miles.
We're still way off topic. Harley's funk is totally self created, and I don't see the current leadership having the focus to bring the bikes into relevance. The heritage cuts both ways. The faithful still worship the ground that Willie G walks on, but he stopped being relevant about 30 years ago. He is solely responsible for the VROD and the lack of utilization of its potential. He's the reason the Softail is the current platform. As long as the MoCo clings to him and his gawdy aesthetic, the bikes will continue to appeal to a dying market.

 

[ob1ventura]

Your Dyna doesn't compare to the GS beyond both having two wheels. Most Harley baggers won't leave the county they're parked in, let alone multi state journeys, so mocking the GS as a highway machine is kind of a glass house situation. Again, the belt drive has applications, and they work well. The fact that you have to remove the swingarm on a touring bike to replace them is not ideal. I swapped my FXR to chain because I was uninterested in that task when the belt failed. Changing a belt on a Dyna is not much fun, either.
Swapping a belt on my Uly is not great, but it's a damn sight easier than any Harley. Still, that bike kills a belt in 50k miles.
We're still way off topic. Harley's funk is totally self created, and I don't see the current leadership having the focus to bring the bikes into relevance. The heritage cuts both ways. The faithful still worship the ground that Willie G walks on, but he stopped being relevant about 30 years ago. He is solely responsible for the VROD and the lack of utilization of its potential. He's the reason the Softail is the current platform. As long as the MoCo clings to him and his gawdy aesthetic, the bikes will continue to appeal to a dying market.

Should just ignore this one........... damn.

You don't know me or my bike so take your opinion of "your dyna" and shove it up your ass.
I chose to compare power numbers of the dyna to the GS because both are used to load up and put down some miles. There is one on CL now that I considered this morning. Clean, almost no $$ and has the lights and bags. Let it go because I would be using it for much of what I use my dynas for. Also don't want to invest in a stich.

Have spent time on the GS and not mocking them but an adventure bike.... really? Have 3 riding buds w/ GS's and have put down a lot of mile interstate with them. Very capable riders so have a good idea what the bike is capable of. No glass house. Just pointing out that the dyna puts out more power and most consider the GS respectable so why the HD hate.

Calling BS on the belt going to shit in 50k miles. Even if it did, so what. Take off the rear wheel and pull the swing arm pivot bolt. 2 hrs in the garage and it's done. (Edit... Yeh, you do have to pull the inner primary so make it all afternoon) It used to take me almost that long to cut the chain and thread on a new one on the 10r and I did that every 25 to 30k. Have you replaced the dry clutch or a drive shaft on the GS?

Don't have the bandana, belt buckle, or harley ink so can't speak to your opinion re: "the faithful". Admit I have some T shirts my friends pick up when overseas.

Have fun.............

I'll take my vacation now mods.

 

[Kornholio]

I'm dead serious on this and not suggesting it in an offensive sort of way, but I would LOVE to see a dyno sheet proving ANY stock Dyna is putting out more power than a stock 1250 BMW R-engine. It's not even remotely close. What did the last Dyna put out stock at even the crank? 65HP or nearabouts? C'mon, man.

Shit, my 1200 (1170cc) R-engine puts out 110 at the crank. Not one single Harley-Davidson engine in any "full size" model even approaches that much horsepower...and 110 horsepower ain't shit to begin with!

Granted, I grew up with HD and love the motorcycles for what they are and when they stay in their lane in terms of motorcycle class. But some people have an EXTREMELY hyper-inflated opinion of what HD's motorcycles are and they largely can't back any of it up with data. It's typically anecdotal at best.

 

[ob1ventura]

I'm dead serious on this and not suggesting it in an offensive sort of way, but I would LOVE to see a dyno sheet proving ANY stock Dyna is putting out more power than a stock 1250 BMW R-engine. It's not even remotely close. What did the last Dyna put out stock at even the crank? 65HP or nearabouts? C'mon, man.

Shit, my 1200 (1170cc) R-engine puts out 110 at the crank. Not one single Harley-Davidson engine in any "full size" model even approaches that much horsepower...and 110 horsepower ain't shit to begin with!

Granted, I grew up with HD and love the motorcycles for what they are and when they stay in their lane in terms of motorcycle class. But some people have an EXTREMELY hyper-inflated opinion of what HD's motorcycles are and they largely can't back any of it up with data. It's typically anecdotal at best.

No offense taken Jason. Typing quick to get this in before my "vacation"
Was comparing '07 GS to '07 Dyna. It takes only one long weekend to install wood gear driven cams, two brother 2 into 1 pipes and 103" jugs w/ some head work. The heads were ready to install. Very little time or money involved. A quick flash w/ a FP3 and got a bit over 100hp and close to if not over 100 ft/lbs.

Agree that it ain't shit to begin with but it did embarrass a pretentious little d#@k on a duck down in San Diego that was trying to make a point.

If BARFers want to bag on HD they should be talking about swing arms attached to rubber mounted motors.......

 

[Kornholio]

I mean...I get it. But at the same time, Harley isn't going to be able to sell me on a $20K cruiser when I can have a $14K standard (that's still actually air-cooled) that runs circles around everything they offer in stock trim.

 

[Kornholio]

I'm going to take it one step further and delve down a rabbit hole that will likely earn me some enemies...

Harley needs to get away from union labor. There's absolutely no reason that an assembly line worker building those motorcycles in Wisconsin needs to be making a shit ton an hour to do it. That's fucking ridiculous and a huge reason why the damn things cost so much. The company has to pass that expense on to the customer. I know of people that were making $35 an hour back in 2002 to install glove boxes on Tacomas at NUMMI. Four fucking screws after pressing it in place...and they get paid how much to do that?! In fucking 2002?! No wonder Tacomas cost so fucking much! :|

 

[ob1ventura]

I mean...I get it. But at the same time, Harley isn't going to be able to sell me on a $20K cruiser when I can have a $14K standard (that's still actually air-cooled) that runs circles around everything they offer in stock trim.

Agreed!

You are from Ventura at one point if I remember correctly. Know "My Garage"; a independent harley shop? I guess it was 30 years ago a friend there advised me to get the base dyna then do what I want with it. Good advice and glad I took it. Now a couple of dyna's later I put way too much $$ and time into the '07 but justify it because I'm not at all interested in what the motor company has come out with in the last few years. This will be my last Harley.

Oh yeh, and don't call my dyna a cruiser....... damn it

What air cooled bike are you talking about Jason? Have been seriously interested in the '18 RSV4rr. Made an offer on one a while back and Desmond out in Livermore has been patient. The new DMV fees and the complicated valve job have made me pause.

 

[ob1ventura]

I'm going to take it one step further and delve down a rabbit hole that will likely earn me some enemies...

Harley needs to get away from union labor. There's absolutely no reason that an assembly line worker building those motorcycles in Wisconsin needs to be making a shit ton an hour to do it. That's fucking ridiculous and a huge reason why the damn things cost so much. The company has to pass that expense on to the customer. I know of people that were making $35 an hour back in 2002 to install glove boxes on Tacomas at NUMMI. Four fucking screws after pressing it in place...and they get paid how much to do that?! In fucking 2002?! No wonder Tacomas cost so fucking much! :|

Yup! Killed the fucking goose. And look what happened in Detroit. My last vette engine was assembled in Mexico.

 

[Kornholio]

What air cooled bike are you talking about Jason?

The current crop of BMW's "Heritage" line. Specifically, the R Nine T. 1170cc, air-cooled, 110 HP, 86 LB-FT of torque, Brembo 4-piston radial-mount dual disc brakes, USD adjustable forks, shaft drive that has literally zero maintenance other than an occasional drain and fill, weighs about 150 pounds less at worst and multiple hundreds of pounds less at best and it costs around $14-15K depending on where you buy it.

 

[ob1ventura]

The current crop of BMW's "Heritage" line. Specifically, the R Nine T. 1170cc, air-cooled, 110 HP, 86 LB-FT of torque, Brembo 4-piston radial-mount dual disc brakes, USD adjustable forks, shaft drive that has literally zero maintenance other than an occasional drain and fill, weighs about 150 pounds less at worst and multiple hundreds of pounds less at best and it costs around $14-15K depending on where you buy it.

Didn't see that coming. Thought you were referring to a used air cooled monster.

Yeh, spent a few hours at BMW on bryant last year. Liked the R nine T. Was looking at replacing the 10r so the power numbers didn't work and I walked over to the S1000rr. If I didn't already have the dyna I would probably buy the R90..... strike that r nine t

Damn it. Now I've got that bike in my head.
Anyone want to buy a well maintained '07 dyna?
No wait...... an old gray haired beer drinking libertarian would look ridiculous on the r nine t right?

 

[Kornholio]

I've got an R Nine T in my garage right now.

 

[ob1ventura]

I've got an R Nine T in my garage right now.

Figures. You also had a monster if I recall.
Really like that bike.

Pics?

 

[augustiron]

Figures. You also had a monster if I recall.
Really like that bike.

Pics?

Sploogie !!!!!!!

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

Should just ignore this one........... damn.

You don't know me or my bike so take your opinion of "your dyna" and shove it up your ass.
I chose to compare power numbers of the dyna to the GS because both are used to load up and put down some miles. There is one on CL now that I considered this morning. Clean, almost no $$ and has the lights and bags. Let it go because I would be using it for much of what I use my dynas for. Also don't want to invest in a stich.

Have spent time on the GS and not mocking them but an adventure bike.... really? Have 3 riding buds w/ GS's and have put down a lot of mile interstate with them. Very capable riders so have a good idea what the bike is capable of. No glass house. Just pointing out that the dyna puts out more power and most consider the GS respectable so why the HD hate.

Calling BS on the belt going to shit in 50k miles. Even if it did, so what. Take off the rear wheel and pull the swing arm pivot bolt. 2 hrs in the garage and it's done. (Edit... Yeh, you do have to pull the inner primary so make it all afternoon) It used to take me almost that long to cut the chain and thread on a new one on the 10r and I did that every 25 to 30k. Have you replaced the dry clutch or a drive shaft on the GS?

Don't have the bandana, belt buckle, or harley ink so can't speak to your opinion re: "the faithful". Admit I have some T shirts my friends pick up when overseas.

Have fun.............

I'll take my vacation now mods.

I'm talking about design/market more than actual use. The GS is built to perform a completely different set of tasks than any Dyna. I'm not singling you or your bike out specifically.
The comments about HD's touring bikes being poser bikes applies to the GS owners with Clearwater's and tamale cart saddlebags that ride around town standing up.
Trade the Harley branded uniform for BMW motorclothes or Kilm gear, it's the same thing.

Buell recommends belt replacement at 50k, and my belt was certainly ready at that number. The pulley that runs against the back of it may have something to do with that. For reference, that bike doesn't even require wheel removal to change the belt. There is a section of the swingarm that is removable in order for the belt to pass through. It's slick. Being Sportster based, it's not saddled with the stacked input/output shaft of Harley big twins. Again, it's a great low maintenance mileage eater that does a lot of things very well.
I like Dynas, just to be clear. I happen to own an FXR, because I haven't updated myself to twin cam Harley engines yet. Honesty, the FXR is also a much better frame than the Dyna frame. We could talk for years about the FXR vs Dyna debate, but it's all irrelevant now with this Softail.
As far as the HP wars, my FXR puts down 142hp at the rear wheel, with 126ft/lbs. It also burns up a top end every 10k miles and I have to run race gas in the summer. This is why I run a chain. Belt drives don't like heavy handed corner exits or clutch dumps. I'm sure a belt would live if I rode nicer, but I have a much better bike for covering miles on.
I know a reasonable twin cam is capable of 100hp.
That said, I've ridden both the GS and several Dynas, with powerplants ranging from mild 88" engines to 120" Jim's racing engines.
I like what a 100hp Dyna feels like, but I wouldn't want to use it the same way I use my Buell. It's surely a preference thing, but I think the GS is a better answer to the "main bike" question.
If you wanna talk new HD's, which is relevant to this discussion, I think they've missed the boat. Forward controls on "performance" models because that's the only way the stylized exhaust fits. A company that spends that much on engineering could make the same power out of exhaust that clears mid controls, because they do on other models of the same platform. They put the controls out there because the look of the exhaust is a priority over ergonomics. The forward controls also offer a higher lean angle on paper. In reality only those with 36" inseams can keep their bootheels from dragging, but that's not really important, because 240 section rear tires don't exactly turn in easily.
So, there it is. Back to Willie G and his style above all Else mindset.

 

[ob1ventura]

I'm talking about design/market more than actual use. The GS is built to perform a completely different set of tasks than any Dyna. I'm not singling you or your bike out specifically.
The comments about HD's touring bikes being poser bikes applies to the GS owners with Clearwater's and tamale cart saddlebags that ride around town standing up.
Trade the Harley branded uniform for BMW motorclothes or Kilm gear, it's the same thing.

Buell recommends belt replacement at 50k, and my belt was certainly ready at that number. The pulley that runs against the back of it may have something to do with that. For reference, that bike doesn't even require wheel removal to change the belt. There is a section of the swingarm that is removable in order for the belt to pass through. It's slick. Being Sportster based, it's not saddled with the stacked input/output shaft of Harley big twins. Again, it's a great low maintenance mileage eater that does a lot of things very well.
I like Dynas, just to be clear. I happen to own an FXR, because I haven't updated myself to twin cam Harley engines yet. Honesty, the FXR is also a much better frame than the Dyna frame. We could talk for years about the FXR vs Dyna debate, but it's all irrelevant now with this Softail.
As far as the HP wars, my FXR puts down 142hp at the rear wheel, with 126ft/lbs. It also burns up a top end every 10k miles and I have to run race gas in the summer. This is why I run a chain. Belt drives don't like heavy handed corner exits or clutch dumps. I'm sure a belt would live if I rode nicer, but I have a much better bike for covering miles on.
I know a reasonable twin cam is capable of 100hp.
That said, I've ridden both the GS and several Dynas, with powerplants ranging from mild 88" engines to 120" Jim's racing engines.
I like what a 100hp Dyna feels like, but I wouldn't want to use it the same way I use my Buell. It's surely a preference thing, but I think the GS is a better answer to the "main bike" question.
If you wanna talk new HD's, which is relevant to this discussion, I think they've missed the boat. Forward controls on "performance" models because that's the only way the stylized exhaust fits. A company that spends that much on engineering could make the same power out of exhaust that clears mid controls, because they do on other models of the same platform. They put the controls out there because the look of the exhaust is a priority over ergonomics. The forward controls also offer a higher lean angle on paper. In reality only those with 36" inseams can keep their bootheels from dragging, but that's not really important, because 240 section rear tires don't exactly turn in easily.
So, there it is. Back to Willie G and his style above all Else mindset.

Agree with most of what you claim in this post. I will not be buying a late model HD. Guess to that extent I'm supporting OP's claim.

Considered a GS in '07 when I picked up my last dyna but went w/ the devil I know. I'm a luddite who first got into bikes in the late 60's primarily due to their simplicity. Air, fuel and spark baby. You can pick up most needed fasteners for a HD at ACE and rebuild the thing in your garage. A shade tree wrench is free to work on it because it's pretty difficult to fuck it up worse than the factory. Really enjoyed the zx10r but like a friend from the factory confirmed, it is a throwaway bike. It's dealer dependent and once you rack up the miles it makes more sense to toss it than throwing money down the pit.

 

[TheRobSJ]

So, there it is. Back to Willie G and his style above all Else mindset.

You know Willie retired from H-D like 7 years ago.

The Rushmore series FL bikes, Street 500/750, the new Softail line, Livewire, and all the new bikes coming with that new water cooled twin? Not from his drawing board.

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

You know Willie retired from H-D like 7 years ago.

The Rushmore series FL bikes, Street 500/750, the new Softail line, Livewire, and all the new bikes coming with that new water cooled twin? Not from his drawing board.

Not from his drawing board, but they all follow his design principals of style above function. Even the twin cooled Rushmore bikes escewed a water pump and any meaningful performance gain in exchange for keeping the water based cooling system hidden. They go through such great lengths to prioritize style over performance.
I know the VROD is dead, but there's an example. They took a great powerplant and wrapped it in a mediocre chassis with slow steering angles in order to emphasize the drag racing look. Despite that bike not being the platform for the factory drag machines. The trade offs they made for a low seat and barcalounger ergos really limited the potential of that bike.
I know I sound like I have some axe to grind, but the company has a serious image and attitude problem. If you don't agree, try riding a Buell to some sort of Harley event. The disgust I received on my S3T when I was in Milwaukee for the 110th anniversary was mind boggling.
I am looking forward to the idea of the PanAm, perhaps it'll replace my beloved Ulysses. I'm cautiously optimistic.
They still make sure everything is somehow "signature Harley" which isn't always a good thing. Sometimes you just want a good bike, without some gimmick.

 

[ratsblast]

It might be time for a diet, I have broke 3 belts on the BeLast in the last 15k miles. Did fuck one up crashing. Doest help the belt is like 3/4in wide. The Sporty is still on the original belt at 47k miles, did have the front sprocket strip out, luckily the splines on 5th gear were still good.

I didnt realize there was an actual Willie G, always thought Willie G was a sort a pagan deity symbolized by the Skull as alluded to here. The problem with HD is the whole image, blacked out with ghost skulls and flames and tattoos, it all feels a bit contrived. I am gonna display rugged individuality by buying into a corporate image.

The BMW poser world adventurer with 1000s of dollars in Farkles is a different and less obnoxious form of off putting.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Well that upcoming Livewire has nothing “signature Harley” about it other than perhaps the belt drive. I just don’t see that bike opening the floodgates of revenue for the brand. The Streetfighter, Pan American, and Custom on the other hand? As long as they can keep price and performance competitive with say, BMW (because let’s face it they’ll never compete with Japan on price), then maybe they have a chance to stop the bleeding over there in Milwaukee.