aminalmutha
New member
Bruh, last time I checked BART had been around a while.
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high speed rail fail
- Thread starter enki
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aminalmutha
New member
And to be honest, Europe probably isn’t a whole lot better in that regard.
I originally supported HSR. I still support it but in a different way. Instead of connecting LA to SF with HSR - they should run a route from Sac to SF (with 1 stop in Oakland) going under the bay. Make it a 45min train ride (idk what speed they could accomplish it at)
Then connect LA to SD via HSR.
Then connect LA to Las Vegas via HSR.
Make it so I can live in Sac and commute to SF with little to no problem, WiFi and make it quick. The Cost of Living in sac vs SF would make it worthwhile. I could buy a house potentially and still enjoy city pay.
But that's just my thoughts.
Then connect LA to SD via HSR.
Then connect LA to Las Vegas via HSR.
Make it so I can live in Sac and commute to SF with little to no problem, WiFi and make it quick. The Cost of Living in sac vs SF would make it worthwhile. I could buy a house potentially and still enjoy city pay.
But that's just my thoughts.
I guess I'm not the only BARFer who has worked on HSR (although I was on the design side)
I think the ultimate goal was to connect LA - SF - SAC. The reason for starting in Fresno was because it was supposed to take less time to get up and running, and get as much track down as possible before materials cost increases. It's not a bad plan, and gets something done while the SF SAC LA contingents fight for their connections. (BTW. I agree the SAC-SF link makes most sense for first phase...just hard to get SoCal to go along with it)
The cost issue has to do with competing modes of transport, which are currently subsidized. That is the thing where comparing the US to other countries is problematic: we have subsidized automobiles to a much higher degree than most other countries. We didn't do it give people freedom of movement, we did so because the dollars spent building cars, road, and suburbs translated to jobs. The problem is that it largely ignored the externalities associated with those decisions. Now when people look at rail transport they like to apply a different set of rules.
We have a lot invested in the current model, but its weaknesses are seen in the high population areas. It's why it's a hard sell IMO, but in the long run is probably a wise investment.
The cost issue has to do with competing modes of transport, which are currently subsidized. That is the thing where comparing the US to other countries is problematic: we have subsidized automobiles to a much higher degree than most other countries. We didn't do it give people freedom of movement, we did so because the dollars spent building cars, road, and suburbs translated to jobs. The problem is that it largely ignored the externalities associated with those decisions. Now when people look at rail transport they like to apply a different set of rules.
We have a lot invested in the current model, but its weaknesses are seen in the high population areas. It's why it's a hard sell IMO, but in the long run is probably a wise investment.
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I’m also trying to figure out what the cost of a ticket would be, given these huge cost overruns...Or will we go full socialist and base a ticket on the buyer’s income and have taxpayers pick up the slack...and of course in comparison to an airline ticket, because aorlines are getting more efficient as well.
Johndicezx9
Rolls with it...
Airlines may be getting more efficient, but getting thru airports is still a PITA.....
295566
Numbers McGee
COL in Sac is already on the rise, you think your idea wouldn't cause it to inflate close to Bay Area levels?
I'm sure you'd be the ONLY ONE utilizing HSR to commute to and from Sac and SF. 
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COL in Sac is already on the rise, you think your idea wouldn't cause it to inflate close to Bay Area levels?
Exactly what I was going to write. Plus, it will probably ALSO work to erode SF city pay as compared to other places.
Exactly. There'd be plenty of demand for those routes.
In comparison, SF to LA doesn't have the same demand-to-cost ratio. OK there'd be a few people who'd want to see family in LA, or attend major sporting events...... that's about it.
No business traveler is going to do it, when their employer would pay for a flight anyway. Why would their employer want them to waste more than twice as much time as a flight would take, just to save $100 or so? BTW, say hi to scenic Palmdale on your way!!! 
And njoy the rental car or Lyft you'll need once u get to LA!!!
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AbsolutEnduser
bike r
"Been around for a while" doesn't mean it relates to a discussion about trains.
I maintain that BART is a good example of why trains are need and why communities suffer without trains:
1) if BART had been running down through San Mateo and SC counties, that would LITERALLY have affected positively current socio-economic events: the protests against Google Busses.
2) if LA had their own bart (LART) that would have transformed LA as well by now.
THEN, a HS Train from SF to LA would make *much* more sense, because you wouldn't need a car... (remarked above in a post by Reli)
Well one thing is true maybe, maybe people simply don't want it.
AbsolutEnduser
bike r
You must be referring only to the development of High-speed train in Europe or Japan.
I think more accurately, Europe "does public transit so well" is that they started before the car... just wikid the German S-bahn, say Berlin: started in 1870s (similar to BART). A few countries have such "suburban" trains.
Europe had public transit before 1945.. what they didn't have is car culture/lobby, and a few other technicalities....
afm199
Well-known member
Completely true and well said, my point is that in 1945 there were new beginnings galore, which has never been the case in the US. The car culture of the US is a vulture culture, GM colluded to put public bus systems out of business.
Interesting thing about Berlin's S bahn and U bahn. (S is above ground, U underneath) During the Cold War, it continued to run on both sides but each side had its own stations and there were no common stations. However both sides went underground through the other side's stations at some point. They just didn't stop. I did that in the eighties when East Berlin was still around, went on the U bahn and saw some of the old East Berlin stations as we passed through them. At the height of the cold war, the maintenance departments of both cities had open phone lines and communicated about common problems.
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I would guess we will go full socialists on the train, kinda like roads, bridges, airports and pretty much every other form of transport.
DTM74
It's not my fault...
I was watching the news the other day and they were comparing car vs. train from Sac to SF. A train ticket was about $33/one way. Came out to roughly .35 cents per mile.
If its 200 miles to Bakersfield, given that same price per mile would yield $70. SF to LA is 385 miles-ish, that would be $135...that might be doable. We'll see.
If its 200 miles to Bakersfield, given that same price per mile would yield $70. SF to LA is 385 miles-ish, that would be $135...that might be doable. We'll see.
Blankpage
alien
COL in Sac is already on the rise, you think your idea wouldn't cause it to inflate close to Bay Area levels?
I lived in Sac area for 2 years. Its too boring for anyone to ever pay BA COL rates to live there.
IRS mileage rate is 54c per mile. That makes one way to LA about 190 bucks. It’s not the gas, but all the other expenses that tend to be costlier in urban areas. I think it is why rates of new drivers have been on a downward trend. To me this signals that transportation is becoming a commodity and the auto centric economy is on its way out. Even the recent wildfires should be a signal that cheap living in the outskirts is a subsidized lifestyle.
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Killroy1999
Well-known member
How many people have actually ridden high speed rail? If you have a negative opinion of high speed rail, you should just try it first.
I have. In China, Taiwan, Japan, France. It really awesome. It beats flying in a lot of ways. Its a shame that this country does not have better transit on rails.
I hope it works out in California. We should of done it a long time ago just like today's BARTS extensions should of been down a long time ago. High speed rail should have dedicated tracks. The cost effectiveness of rail goes up as the speed goes up. Think about it.
I have. In China, Taiwan, Japan, France. It really awesome. It beats flying in a lot of ways. Its a shame that this country does not have better transit on rails.
I hope it works out in California. We should of done it a long time ago just like today's BARTS extensions should of been down a long time ago. High speed rail should have dedicated tracks. The cost effectiveness of rail goes up as the speed goes up. Think about it.