Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell Motorcycle Plans Leaked

[ToraTora]

You're on my neighborhood mailing list too?

I probably should be.

 

[HadesOmega]

When we have fusion we'll be able to make lots of energy from hydrogen and plenty of energy to make hydrogen through electrolysis.

 

[Killroy1999]

Exactly.



I don't really see how banning ICE completely stops research into other technologies. Certainly EVs are where most development is currently aimed, but that doesn't preclude future technologies that we have yet to discover.



During a transition yes, but the "hybrids" as in what we have now will go the way of all ICE vehicles.



Only currently. We'll see that out stripped by the other technologies.



Suzuki has already done it years ago--it's obviously not that difficult.

The fuel in the tank is compressed. It does't require as much space as you might imagine.

What?

Those are great concepts, but are they for sale yet and are the specs attractive?

 

[Killroy1999]

Yeah, that's fine. But "well-to-wheel" is hydrocarbon lobbyist nonsense. The whole H2 supply chain could be (is not, but could be) complete carbon-free. You don't have to make it out of natural gas.

Fossil fuels typically do horrible in "Well to wheel", so that would be a dumb lobbyist.

I would not worry about coal guys. Coal is not very cost competitive today. Renewables are meeting coal.

Until wind farms and solar panels are free, "well to wheel" efficiency will be important. And solar panels are really just indirect fusion energy

 

[fubar929]

The fuel in the tank is compressed. It does't require as much space as you might imagine.

The fuel tank in my buddy's Clarity is fucking enormous! It reduces the available trunk space to a fraction of what you'd get in a similarly-sized Accord. Think Mazda Miata and you'll have some idea of how much trunk space is available. And don't believe Honda's bullshit about the Clarity having a 366-mile range. Just like Car & Driver my friend frequently gets only 220-230 miles per fill-up; less if he has to use a pump that can't handle the extremely high pressure necessary for a complete fill.

 

[kamaji]

You'll need a lot of electricity to generate the necessary hydrogen, and then the question is "why bother with the middle-man?"

Because batteries suck, requiring nasty mining, and are slow to charge. The slow to charge part can be solved with $$$. The Lithium/etc problem has proven hard to crack. If they don't crack it, it may take a long time but H2 may win in the end.

In any case - I wish I could get rid of the ICE, but at the current state I'm not about to bother with any of those technologies.

 

[Killroy1999]

It turns out that the hydrogen refilling station will be making its own hydrogen and it will make 40 kg a day according to the articles below. That is enough to fill up 4 Toyota Mirais.

100 kg can be delivered by truck in a "swap and drop" tank.

The station will cost $2.1 to 2.8 million and will be subsidized $100,000 a year for 3 years. It was suppose to be done 2 years ago on Halloween.

It will need some major electrical power for the electrolysis, compression and cooling systems and the station is required to use 100% renewable energy, which is good but it explains the cost of twice as much as using gasoline. I'm not saying renewables are expensive, but but making hydrogen is inefficient and therefor expensive.

https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2015/03/27/hydrogen-fuel-station-planned-for-skylonda
https://www.almanacnews.com/news/20...-fuel-cell-station-set-to-open-in-may-or-june

 

[HadesOmega]

wowzers $2.8 million!

 

[Killroy1999]

wowzers $2.8 million!

There are about 31 Hydrogen Fueling Stations in this state and about 1600 FCEVs. So that is a investment of ~$41,000 per vehicle. arty

 

[nakedape]

There are about 31 Hydrogen Fueling Stations in this state and about 1600 FCEVs. So that is a investment of ~$41,000 per vehicle. arty

There were about 3 supercomputers in the world at a cost of millions at one point. This is the kind of tech development we need.

 

[TTTom]

10,000 PSI hydrogen tank plus simple lowside into a guardrail:

 

[ToraTora]

You do realize that they wont be containing the H2 with canvas, right? One might ask about the alternatives--are the Li-ion batteries totally safe? Look at what can happen with just a tiny one inside of a phone. Imagine if that battery were larger enough to power an automobile?

Anything that contains concentrated energy (fuel/battery) is going to have the potential to get out of control. Playing Chicken Little with no understanding or knowledge of the underlaying systems is rather irresponsible, don't you think?

 

[Killroy1999]

Can you explain that? As stated, it doesn't really square with the principle of work-energy equivalence.

I guess I was wrong- A EV will drive 3 times as far as a Fuel Cell Vehicle using the same amount to energy.

Toyota also admits that Hydrogen was not a great idea, but invest anyway. FCEVs do get much more ZEV credits than EVs and hybrids.

 

[HadesOmega]

That chart looks like someone's science project. Like why is there fuel cell and fuel cell vehicle? isn't the Fuel cell in the fuel cell vehicle? Plus there are self sustaining stations right? So cut transportation and maybe even compression out.

The ticket with hydrogen will be the fact that it is virtually unlimited resource and we just need to find a way to refine it better.

I'm surprised no one mentioned safety till now also, hydrogen is safer than gasoline. Gasoline we have vapors and the gas will pool around and leak. Where as hydrogen will simply just vent to the atmosphere. The tanks are bullet resistant also, that's how they test them. So I'm sure it would survive a lowside crash. Ever see someone try to shoot a propane tank thinking it will explode like in the movies? Doesn't happen.

 

[Killroy1999]

That chart looks like someone's science project. Like why is there fuel cell and fuel cell vehicle? isn't the Fuel cell in the fuel cell vehicle? Plus there are self sustaining stations right? So cut transportation and maybe even compression out.

The ticket with hydrogen will be the fact that it is virtually unlimited resource and we just need to find a way to refine it better.

I'm surprised no one mentioned safety till now also, hydrogen is safer than gasoline. Gasoline we have vapors and the gas will pool around and leak. Where as hydrogen will simply just vent to the atmosphere. The tanks are bullet resistant also, that's how they test them. So I'm sure it would survive a lowside crash. Ever see someone try to shoot a propane tank thinking it will explode like in the movies? Doesn't happen.

Yes, its science.

There are two hydrogen options:

1. "Compression" -basically still a gas - more volume to support, so "transportation" takes a hit.

2. "Liquefaction" - this was mentioned in this thread. It takes a lot of energy, but its denser and you can transport more of it, so transportation is more efficient.

3. Yes, you can cut out Transportation, by producing it onsite, but the station behind Alice's only can fill 4 cars a day.

4. Compression is necessary. There is not a lot of energy in 1 ATM hydrogen. It would be funny to see a giant hydrogen balloon floating behind each FCEV.

5. Safety, there are rare cases of CNG car explosions and they are not good. I think its a wash. Anytime you have a lot of energy packed into a tank its a issue no mater if its a gas tank, EV or hydrogen. The 10,000 psi pressure of a FCEV is a risk. The huge crumple zones on Teslas have proven to save a lot of lives so far in the real world. The engine in a conventional car reduces the crumple zone. Cars have bloated in size and weight in the name of safety.

 

[ToraTora]

3. Yes, you can cut out Transportation, by producing it onsite, but the station behind Alice's only can fill 4 cars a day.

According to the Almanac article, which is what you are quoting right?, the number is about a factor more than what you typed.

The station could fuel between 30 and 45 vehicles a day, Mr. Cazel said. The 43 gallons of grey water also generated daily would be used for irrigation, he said.

Toyota also admits that Hydrogen was not a great idea, but invest anyway.

If you are familiar with Japanese culture you know that they exist in a much politer society. They aren't just going to come out and say Musk is an arrogant ass. Remember, if you ask a Japanese girl out on a date, and she says she's interested a little the true translation is fuck off and die. The article you linked is basically click bate.

 

[Killroy1999]

According to the Almanac article, which is what you are quoting right?, the number is about a factor more than what you typed.

The article from this year said:
"The Woodside station would produce about 40 kilograms of hydrogen per day on site using"

I thought that the Mirai held 10kg of hydrogen because it has 2 hydrogen tanks, but its actually 5 kg combined capacity.

That means the station would fuel 8 Mirais fully per day. The Mirai has better range and I thought it had a larger hydrogen capacity, but I don't know how they got to 40 cars per day. Something does not add up.

About the other article: The Toyota Engineer that said that plug in cars were better was probably speaking on a technical well to wheel efficiency basis only and most people know that refill/recharge time is important and is part of trade-off study.

 

[HadesOmega]

Was posting this topic on another forum and ran into this site that has more info on the hydrogen honda and more pictures. I guess that's what happens when you submit a patent, it like releasing secret info =P

http://www.hondaprokevin.com/honda-motorcycles-hybrid-electric-hydrogen-fuel-cell-bikes-scooters-pictures-patent

Another interesting thing that website had was a patent on supercharged honda motorcycle also. I'll probably make a seperate thread on that.
http://www.hondaprokevin.com/new-honda-supercharged-motorcycle-sport-bike-cbr-patent-pictures

 

[ToraTora]

Yup that must be a Honda because look at those forks! lolz

Nice find Merlin.

That is such a vague application I sure hope they don't get it.