Knee down practice/coaching/crash bike?

[Kurosaki]

Oddly enough, I came across a YouTube short of a guy practicing dragging knee in a parking lot just a couple fo days ago. Though it can be done, it’s not a great idea, as parking lots tend to have debris or other stuff on the surfaces that make traction hard to predict.

Knee dragging is an outcome of sufficient lean angle and is generally not the objective, except for the person new to it. Often, once a rider touches a knee down, they go through a period of doing it everywhere possible, pressing their puck assertively into the pavement. Later, they minimize contact, dabbing a knee just until they make contact and using this as either a way to sense lean angle or occasionally as a way to help recover a slide.

Advice: Learn a secure hang-off position, where you can lock onto the bike with your lower body using no bar pressure. Practice this and become consistent with the position. As you corner incrementally faster and feel like your knee must be getting close, you can reach out a bit with the inside knee and see if it makes contact. If it does, the mystery evaporates and you have a definite idea of how far you are leaned over. If it doesn’t touch, you know there is a ways to go.

Focus on consistent body position, line, corner speed and throttle control. That’s the platform from which to safely go faster, which will require more lean angle. Sooner or later, your knee may touch down as a result.

All of this.

 

[Kurosaki]

Again, the goal is to be prepared for if/when I get my knee down on the track. Knee down isn't the goal. Becoming comfortable with the sound, physical sensation, lean angle, and body position so if/when it happens again on the track I'm not startled and cause myself to crash at a much higher speed.

Trying to get over that fear on the street, parking lot, etc before you go to the track is a bad idea.

If you get scared when it happens on the track, so what? I doubt it would result in you being so startled that you would crash. If it helps, I don't know anyone that got their knee down the first time and it caused them to crash. What will startle you more at the track won't be your knee on the ground, it will probably be someone making an aggressive pass close enough you could tickle their armpit.

Also, there's no safer place to experience that than at the track.

I'm not intending to sound judgy. We've all been new riders at some point.

 

[Das MotorRad]

That is very helpful thanks.

I was riding a CBR 1000, now I'm on an R6

Did you crash on the cbr or r6? Why did you crash? I think a full understanding of what caused the crash will help your confidence.

 

[Das MotorRad]

I appreciate the thoughts and feedback. I guess some explanation is needed,...

My first track day 14 years ago I got my knee down twice, first time startled me I almost crashed then the second time I crashed. I am older and wiser now and want to make track days a regular hobby. I'm taking it slow working on my lines, being relaxed, consistent, controlled, completely centered on the bike. Having a fine time C to C+ level.

Last track day an instructor pulled me aside and told me I need to start hanging off the bike as my lean angle is getting too close to the edge of the tire and its not safe. Hence, I'd rather learn in a controlled safe way than be startled mid corner again.

Was your first track day and crash on cbr? Was your last track day on r6? I have always hit hard parts before running out of tire, on sv650, fz09, s1000r, s1000rr. Never ridden an r6 or cbr, so I can’t speak to those. Listen to tzrider and read up/watch twist of wrist volume 2 and proficient motorcycling by David Hough

Twist vol 2
Proficient Motorcycling

 

[rvlife]

Did you crash on the cbr or r6? Why did you crash? I think a full understanding of what caused the crash will help your confidence.

on the CBR. Its been a while but I do recall being startled by the sound and then did something to lose the front. I don't think I was on the brakes at the time though.

 

[Kurosaki]

on the CBR. Its been a while but I do recall being startled by the sound and then did something to lose the front. I don't think I was on the brakes at the time though.

Not knowing more specifics, probably rolled off the throttle abruptly.

 

[atoyf]

SuperBike school has(had) an exercise potentially leading to a more comfortable knee touch down moment - which is trying to touch a ground with one of your hands (i may be exaggerating, they did not instruct to actually touch the ground,) on a corner, you lock yourself in, relax your grip on the handlebars and let one hand go (not the throttle one), i'm not making that up, been there, done that.. i've also been at the track days where my bike lean showed 56 degrees lean angel, but i was never enough off the bike to touch the knee pack.

Some personal conclusions are - invest as much as you can onto formal training, schools. If you do a track day, don't just run circles on your own, you will never (or it will take a significant amount of time no one has) to get there on your own (unless you are just naturally talented), always ask for an instructor, or try to have one every session you go out, or better yet - hire one from the organizers for the entire day.

If you walk away with at least, one single thing you learned or improved upon from a day, or weekend of riding - consider it a huge personal win.
Parking lot drills are great for general bike controls and comfort, but they do not teach you how to control the bike at armature 100mph speeds..

 

[Gary856]

I have a fear of getting my knee down and I'd rather get over it in a parking lot than risk a panic midturn at the track.

Does anyone provide parking lot training for this? I tried on my own at a parking lot down the street and felt very sketchy as I leaned over. I don't know if it was the lot surface, or my tires, or me.

Advanced Riding Clinic | Total Control Training

No matter what skill level you are now, ARC will make a recognizable difference in your ability to control your bike. The Total Control ARC instructors are highly trained and carefully handpicked for their teaching abilities and friendly dispositions.

www.totalcontroltraining.net

When I took the Total Control ARC class in the Alameda County Fairground parking lot in 2009, I saw Lee Parks strapped on knee pucks and put his knees down around a 20-ft circle. He made it "looked" effortless and strange at the same time because of how slow he was going - like he was on a playground merry go round with the bike barely above idle. The point of the demo wasn't that you needed to put the knee down on the street, but seeing what could be done at extremely low speed was a revelation on technique and traction. (They swept the parking lot with push brooms and asked students to air down to 30 psi.)

 

[rvlife]

Great, thanks all, and yes probably chopped the throttle as my panic reaction

 

[GPzPop]

another option are the "Total Control" schools, such as my employer, Pacific Motorcycle Training.
after the beginner course, there is the "intermediate rider course" (a little rudimentary for an experienced rider) and then a series of "advanced rider courses" that teach body position for high speed stuff in which you may get your knee down. these are all cone courses in parking lots, several locations throughout the greater bay area and beyond.
Edit, see post 28, 2 above this one

 

[rvlife]

Great thanks!

 

[jinhomc]

Like TZ and Budman have mentioned, knee dragging isn't a "skill" - it's the result of getting enough lean angle to touch your knee; and then it's a useful indicator of roughly how much lean angle you have left. If you want to get your knee down, let it happen because you've improved your cornering skill and confidence to the level where you're leaning far enough over to touch your knee during the turn. As I said, the first time it happened to me it startled me a bit - felt like something had grabbed the knee of my leathers or something.

Looking through the corner can help a lot with this. Also, keeping your visual focus at least one section ahead of where you are can help. When you're approaching the entry, you should have your attention on at least the apex, if not both the apex and the exit. Before you get to the apex, you're looking through the corner to the exit at a minimum, if not farther down the track past it. That, plus getting a tow from someone who's riding a bit faster than you are will lead to your knee touching down.

Oh, and one butt cheek off the seat, and body leaning into the turn (not away from it).

Thank you! I am excited to try that out on my first track day coming up in a month!