Learning safe speed for corners

[domingo3]

Sorry, this may be a bit long. I feel like I need to start with a disclaimer. I'm almost 40, and I ride like a grandma. I'm not trying to race anyone on the twisties or push the absolute limits of the bike. I take it easy around corner or turns like off-ramps - REALLY easy. I have a natural desire to not fall, which I think has kept me mostly safe for the last 20 years. I just don't know how to increase my confidence because I don't know how to know how fast is safe. People say you need practice, but if I go 20mph on the same off ramp 500 tomes in a row, that's not developing anything. Are there signs that tell you you're about to lose traction? Here's what I have in mind when people say to practice to learn limits:

Going around the same turn:

20 mph. OK
21 mph. OK
22 mph. OK
23 mph. OK
24 mph. OK
25 mph. OK
26 mph. OK
27 mph. Low side

"Oh... I guess I shoulda stay at 25 or below"

On some suggestions before, I went to a couple of track days. I didn't feel like I made much progress. I was the slowest on the track by far, which was OK by me except by the end if the day, people were passing me a bit aggressively and I felt uncomfortable. More importantly, I felt the same anxiety going into corners, not knowing any more about how to determine how fast is safe.

I've been known to be very smart about some things, yet oblivious to something very obvious that nobody else needs explained to them. Does anybody get what I'm driving at here and can shed some light on this for me?

Thanks much

 

[redrum750]

The track won't teach you anything, instructors will. Read some books like Twist of the Wrist and Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.

Start with a beginning track class like Classrides, run by Reg Pridmore. Then you might be ready for a trackday.

After that consider going to a more advanced track school like Jason Pridmore's Star School or Keith Code's California Superbike School.

After that, hit the track as much as you can. Read more, take more classes. Rinse and repeat.

 

[danate]

You shouldn't be relying on the actual speed to tell you what's safe. Your vision and perception are what you should base your speed off of.

If you go around the same turn over and over, you should be able to gradually increase your speed while remaining in your comfort zone. If you are approaching a turn and feel panicky or like you're going too fast, then you are going too fast (for yourself at least, often not the bike). Each time you go you should aim for reaching the edge of your comfort level before taking the turn. Do this, and your comfort level will expand. I did this by going up and down highway 9 until the first time I dragged my peg on a 15mph turn. Was a great feeling. Now I typically will take my turns without reaching maximum lean, but I feel confident having to go there when needed. That is the point where going to the track should be helpful as you can really test the limits there and work on using your body position to turn even faster.

The important thing is not to put yourself in a situation where you are triggering your SRs (survival reactions). These will cause you to crash.

I highly recommend reading Twist of the Wrist and other books as well as attending some classes. The Alameda Sheriff's Civilian Moto class is a fantastic one if you want to work on low speed cornering. Lee Park's class is excellent for working on higher speed cornering and getting leaned over. If you feel your judgement of what is a safe speed isn't accurate, then having instructors watch you and tell you what to do may help you build that judgement.

It takes time to really get comfortable as well. Think of little things while riding to focus on and you will always improve. The Doc Wong classes are great for that as well (such as one where we went on a ride with the focus being to be as light on the handlebars as possible for the whole ride).

Hope this helps.

 

[afm199]

As said, get instruction. Riding is not done on balls and nerve, it's done on technique and application. If you don't know the techniques, you can have all the balls in the world to no avail.

 

[louemc]

+ To All of the above ..And...there is so much more, it isn't just a speed number issue. And finding the technique, yourself (keeping in mind Ya don't know it, so You're not a qualified teacher), is the school of hard knocks.

And...schools at tracks, are on surfaces that are well taken care of...
Public road, is a freak show, for two wheel transportation.

It's a long and tough, learning curve. Taking in a variety of schools and clinics (tried Doc Wong?) and doing dirt as well as pavement...helps.

The BARF and what is available in the bay area, is a Gold Mine, though.

 

[flying_hun]

If you're worried about a lowside, and the road's clean and you haven't used up all your lean angle, you're probably worried about the wrong thing. Along with all the other suggestions to get instruction - a really good idea - consider something like Rich Oliver's Mystery School. It will get you comfortable with how the bike behaves at the edge of traction, and that will address that fear.

 

[DataDan]

I just don't know how to increase my confidence because I don't know how to know how fast is safe. People say you need practice, but if I go 20mph on the same off ramp 500 tomes in a row, that's not developing anything. Are there signs that tell you you're about to lose traction? Here's what I have in mind when people say to practice to learn limits:

Going around the same turn:

20 mph. OK
21 mph. OK
22 mph. OK
23 mph. OK
24 mph. OK
25 mph. OK
26 mph. OK
27 mph. Low side

"Oh... I guess I shoulda stay at 25 or below"

If you were to do that experiment, repeating until you eventually crashed, I can say with confidence that the cause of the crash would NOT be inadequate grip for the turn and speed. Rather, it would be a visual or mental error, inadequate steering input, or poor throttle or brake application. If you did indeed get to the point where you low-sided due to insufficient grip in an otherwise well-executed turn, you would have, by then, overcome the unnerving racket of footpegs and hard parts scraping and ignored that unmistakable warning to slow down.


IMHO, you don't practice to "learn limits" but to overcome them--because the limits you'll hit before you've mastered cornering skills are internal, not external. To corner well, you must...

Plan the turn. Starting with a basic template of how to get around a bend ("slow-look-lean-roll" works well), identify a turn-in point, an apex to steer for, and then an exit point. As you progress through the turn, your eyes and brain must stay well ahead of the motorcycle. This allows you to see and act as if in slow-motion.

Brake effectively. Smooth application and smooth release. That doesn't mean wimpy. You can brake very hard if necessary, but use the feedback of front-end compression and de-compression for smooth control to avoid jerkiness.

Steer the motorcycle. Do you make an explicit countersteering input in every turn? When someone says, "Yeah, I think I countersteer..." it's unlikely they're making the active input needed to turn the motorcycle quickly. Learn to lean the motorcycle into a turn by actively applying pressure to the handlebars. Learn how a forceful input can lean it very quickly. The faster you're going into a given turn, the harder and quicker you must steer to achieve a desired line. And in some turns--especially tight turns on narrow roads--the ultimate limit isn't grip, but how quickly you can steer.

Get back on the gas. Throttle application is crucial in cornering. It balances cornering force between the front and rear tires, and it loads the rear suspension to maintain ground clearance. Begin roll-on when the motorcycle is leaned to the angle necessary to negotiate the turn, and continue to roll-on smoothly through the rest of the turn. Like braking, throttle application can benefit from feedback the motorcycle gives you.​

Each skill can be practiced more or less individually, to great advantage. Spend your next ride focused on planning your turns and moving your vision from point to point through the turns. On another ride focus on steering. Discover how quickly the motorcycle can lean into a turn.

When practicing, ride at a speed that allows you to accomplish your objective. If the drill is to move your eyes from turn-in to apex to exit well ahead of the motorcycle, at first you'll have to think about the steps in order to execute, so you'll be kind of slow. Ride at speed that lets you succeed; as you improve, less conscious thought will be required, confidence rises, and you will naturally get faster.


I highly recommend Keith Code's Twist II video and Twist II book, and Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techniques. Note that both Keith and Nick emphasize visual skills: Section 4 in Code and Chapter 3, The Eyes Have It, in Ienatsch.

For a track experience with direct instruction at a noobish level--not just "follow me and do what I do"--try Streetmasters.

 

[latindane]

That is one great post by DataDan. I would follow that advice, and as you do that, modify your hypothetical

Going around the same turn, being very deliberate about what I do and why:

20 mph. OK
21 mph. OK
22 mph. OK
23 mph. OK
24 mph. OK
25 mph. OK
26 mph. OK
27 mph. starts feeling "iffy"/ my brain can't keep up/ I scare myself

"Oh... I guess I need to practice some more at 25mph"

As you take a couple of clicks back, and slowly up the pace again, you will keep pushing that envelope of feeling calm and in control (enough to work at the things you need to work on) farther and farther. Purely physical limits are a long way down the process.

 

[clutchslip]

...... People say you need practice, but if I go 20mph on the same off ramp 500 tomes in a row, that's not developing anything. Are there signs that tell you you're about to lose traction? Here's what I have in mind when people say to practice to learn limits:

Going around the same turn:

20 mph. OK
........
27 mph. Low side

"Oh... I guess I shoulda stay at 25 or below"

On some suggestions before, I went to a couple of track days. I didn't feel like I made much progress. I was the slowest on the track by far, which was OK by me except by the end if the day, people were passing me a bit aggressively and I felt uncomfortable. More importantly, I felt the same anxiety going into corners, not knowing any more about how to determine how fast is safe.

I've been known to be very smart about some things, yet oblivious to something very obvious that nobody else needs explained to them. Does anybody get what I'm driving at here and can shed some light on this for me?

Yes, there are signs before you lowside, USUALLY. However, 1 mph is unlikely enough to cause a crash from a controlled safe-feeling turn. Even at 25 mph. You need more personalized attention, in my opinion. Besides an obvious and rational (although exaggerated) fear, I am not sure what you specifically can't recognize that makes you uncomfortable.

Have you never had either tire slide while riding?
Have you ever had the handlebars wobble back and forth?
Have you ever applied the brakes and had the motorcycle do something that you did not expect?
Etcetera.

Your time on a track may be wasted, unless your goal is to go faster on the track. I agree with others that the SENIOR Pridmore classes are beneficial for street riders. But, again, I think you need to identify what makes you nervous and what you recognize before you spend more money on track time.

 

[Enchanter]

A large part of a riders fear can be eliminated by looking farther down the road, or in this case, farther through the turn. As usual, DataDan nailed it with this statement:

As you progress through the turn, your eyes and brain must stay well ahead of the motorcycle. This allows you to see and act as if in slow-motion.

If you raise your eyes, and look farther down the road, your trepidation will soon leave you.

 

[tzrider]

Get back on the gas. Throttle application is crucial in cornering. It balances cornering force between the front and rear tires, and it loads the rear suspension to maintain ground clearance. Begin roll-on when the motorcycle is leaned to the angle necessary to negotiate the turn, and continue to roll-on smoothly through the rest of the turn. Like braking, throttle application can benefit from feedback the motorcycle gives you.[/indent]

Yes, there are signs before you lowside, USUALLY.

OP, I'm interpreting your question as wondering if there are warning signs or sensations prior to losing traction. If that's what you're asking, there is important info in the above.

When cornering, if there more load on the front than on the rear, the front is likely to slide before the rear and vice versa. The bike will typically crash more quickly from a front slide than a rear slide, making front slides harder to save.

What Dan says above about rolling on the gas (and when to begin) is crucial to getting the weight biased to the rear wheel. By doing so, you are getting the most traction the bike is capable of delivering and if the bike does slide, it is more likely the rear will slide first.

When riders cause a slide, they do so usually by adding too much lean angle, too much brake, too much throttle or riding over something slippery. Assuming you've selected a line that will stay on clean pavement, the variables should be lean angle and throttle. If you change only one of these at a time, it is far less likely that you would have a slide in the first place and vastly easier to detect the onset of a slide early. Getting back to Dan's post above, lean the bike to the desired lean angle and then begin slowly rolling on the gas. Stay relaxed and still on the bike while rolling on.

Slides often begin with a sensation of vibration as the tire begins to scrub on the pavement. As a rear slide progresses, the rear will yaw out. Both of these things are much easier to feel if you are sitting still on the bike. If you experience a rear slide this way and the only thing you've been doing is rolling on the gas, simply pause your roll-on or roll off the gas a little bit (don't shut it off completely) and traction should come back. As you can imagine, the earlier you catch these the better.

 

[EastBayDave]

You shouldn't be relying on the actual speed to tell you what's safe. Your vision and perception are what you should base your speed off of.

I liked Danate's post a ton; shortened it for clarity.

Go find a lonely backroad twisty near home so it's convenient. Ride at your comfort level. Then go back & ride it again, several times. Somewhere where it's quiet & little/no traffic so you will have no distractions. Now you should be able to CONCENTRATE/FOCUS on your riding; especially your control inputs for different corners. Brake here, downshift there, gas here, upshift there/etc.

After this you likely will know the turns you like/dislike. Now you know what problems you are having; now it's time to find out why. As mentioned, "A Twist of the Wrist" or other riding tutoring book is immensely helpful, I learned a lot from these. "Sportbiking, the Real World" by Gary Jaehne (ex-BARF member) is also a great one if you can find it.

OR, find a experienced rider in your area that will go out & help you. Many older/retired experienced guys are around, happy to help someone. I'd be happy to but bike/rider down at the moment.

Hope this helps...

-ebd

 

[louemc]

I'm not going to endorse any "self teaching" in this area of learning what works on varying surfaces of the public road, on the bikes that have such quick transitions from no issue safe tire hook up -to- this is sliding and I have no idea what to do...riders.

There is professional coaching-guidance-help, and free...If a rider doesn't have the incentive to get to even the free...to give more meaning to what is being said, in the books, or seen in the video's....

It's just a matter of time till the thump-tinkle-crunch sounds arrive.

Track schools are a certain help, but the street is so much more demanding...
A rider has to read more in the surfaces and closing spaces, on the street.

There seems to be a belief that the track is the graduate school, the street is nothing..

But tons of Pro Track racers won't even ride on the un-certain street.
Anyone bother to wonder why the pro's wouldn't?
After all they have proven their skills on the track.
No matter what the street is like, it should be a walk in the park, for them.

 

[tzrider]

I'm not going to endorse any "self teaching" in this area of learning what works on varying surfaces of the public road...

Lou, as you might imagine, I'm all in favor of riders getting trained.

That said, traction loss is not something that can be described by one person so another actually knows what it will feel like. Training can help if the setup allows the student to slide somewhat safely to experience it.

Many dirt schools can let students slide around on little dirt bikes at relatively low speeds. It help with some aspects of feel and control inputs, but there are significant differences when getting back on a much heavier bike with gumball tires on pavement. Some sensations will be different and some aspects of using body English to control the bike won't be as effective on a large bike as they are on a small dirt bike.

The California Superbike School has their Slide Bike, which does allow a student to slide a sportbike on asphalt. This training aid is the best approximation of how a street bike behaves and feels when sliding, as the only real difference is it won't high-side you.

 

[louemc]

Lou, as you might imagine, I'm all in favor of riders getting trained.

That said, traction loss is not something that can be described by one person so another actually knows what it will feel like. Training can help if the setup allows the student to slide somewhat safely to experience it.

Many dirt schools can let students slide around on little dirt bikes at relatively low speeds. It help with some aspects of feel and control inputs, but there are significant differences when getting back on a much heavier bike with gumball tires on pavement. Some sensations will be different and some aspects of using body English to control the bike won't be as effective on a large bike as they are on a small dirt bike.

The California Superbike School has their Slide Bike, which does allow a student to slide a sportbike on asphalt. This training aid is the best approximation of how a street bike behaves and feels when sliding, as the only real difference is it won't high-side you.

Exactly, and the Superbike school Slide bike is a critical tool to take the horror of a high side off the table.

And Kenney Roberts school (if it still exists) started on a small dirt bike to give meaning to the words, of sliding.

Even short of Gumball, when talking RR street bikes on the street...all of this management has to be known, imbedded in the subconscious, before the need to save it arises , after it arises, it's too late.

 

[tzrider]

Exactly, and the Superbike school Slide bike is a critical tool to take the horror of a high side off the table.

How did you learn to slide?

In my own case, I experienced little slides here and there on the street and got accustomed to the feeling. I had read some material that described what (not) to do and managed to learn enough to recognize the sensations and predict traction.

One way or another, riders have to learn this for themselves. A few of the things we've mentioned make the process safer, but ultimately, a rider will be left to predict traction on a given surface on a given day on his own. Hopefully his experience up to that point allows him to detect the onset of a slide and have the appropriate response.

 

[Enchanter]

But tons of Pro Track racers won't even ride on the un-certain street.
Anyone bother to wonder why the pro's wouldn't?
After all they have proven their skills on the track.
No matter what the street is like, it should be a walk in the park, for them.

I know many Pro's and there are many reasons for no longer riding on the street. They include:
a) "I ride enough already, and don't feel like it."
b) "I'm not able to ride at the speeds that I want to (on the street)."
c) "The street is unpredictable (& all that includes. cars, surface, etc)."

Let's not turn this into a track vs. street thing. The reality is that many riders have no desire to take it to the track, and they are able to learn to be safer without ever doing so. While taking a class, or getting private instruction is ideal, we shouldn't miss an opportunity to share something, anything, that the rider can possibly use (safely) immediately.

 

[louemc]

How did you learn to slide?

In my own case, I experienced little slides here and there on the street and got accustomed to the feeling. I had read some material that described what (not) to do and managed to learn enough to recognize the sensations and predict traction.

One way or another, riders have to learn this for themselves. A few of the things we've mentioned make the process safer, but ultimately, a rider will be left to predict traction on a given surface on a given day on his own. Hopefully his experience up to that point allows him to detect the onset of a slide and have the appropriate response.

Decades of riding wet clay trails in Oregon, sliding was a freebee, trying to keep it controllable (doable) was the constant struggle.

Then met the #2 guy, sponsored by Husky in Desert racing, one day while skiing at Mt Bachelor (ski area just out of Bend)
spent a few years trucking from Portland to Bend, to ride with him and his top#1 and top #3 buddies and the races that came along. and to even stay in the same zip code with him, I (with the help of a KTM International trials rider) tricked out a 495 KTM, with factory suspension.

Sliding (roosting) that powerhouse on moist Desert soil, was...Ya can't do wrong.

 

[louemc]

I know many Pro's and there are many reasons for no longer riding on the street. They include:
a) "I ride enough already, and don't feel like it."
b) "I'm not able to ride at the speeds that I want to (on the street)."
c) "The street is unpredictable (& all that includes. cars, surface, etc)."

Let's not turn this into a track vs. street thing. The reality is that many riders have no desire to take it to the track, and they are able to learn to be safer without ever doing so. While taking a class, or getting private instruction is ideal, we shouldn't miss an opportunity to share something, anything, that the rider can possibly use (safely) immediately.

If you're riding on the street, Ya better learn how to cope with the street.

If Ya gloss over and ignore what is there, Ya are just rolling the dice.

If you are riding on the street, it is a street issue, I'm not the one making it a street issue the guy on the bike is.

 

[WWWobble]

I doubt all this [interesting] talk about sliding tires on a street bike is too useful to the OP's question.

I think the discussion needs to focus back to the concept of learning proper mental focus and physical technique to increase OP's comfort zone at whatever speed he is doing when he becomes uncomfortable.

....and I agree that a street oriented course (thinking like maybe a CLASS training course at a small track, Streets of Willow or Sonoma maybe) as I believe these instructors and class participants are a bit less "racing" oriented --- not to say the CLASS instructors are slow....... just a bit less "racing" emphasis which I think the OP would prefer.

I do agree with Lou and others that when you get stalled on "self improvement" a good coach or instructor can break that barrier more quickly and more safely than you'll ever do "on your own."

WWWobble