Lemon Law Advice/Experience?

[Inner Nerd]

Jeez, I'm a little late to this party but I went through something similar with my Triumph Tiger Explorer 2-3 years ago when it spent 66 days in the shop for various crazy issues like a completely new top end, various recalls, and a gearbox failure in the 9 months I owned it. It took over 33 days to resolve the gearbox issue because it was popping out of 2nd gear under ANY load. When I got it back, the top end was sounding like marbles... which meant the top end was about to grenade again (top end was already replaced once for this months prior). I contacted Triumph directly about a buyback and they offered me any accessory I wanted from the parts or apparel catalog (LOL WUT how is a full arrow exhaust suppose to prevent my top end from grenading?!). I declined their offer and suggested doing a buyback without getting lawyers involved because it would only end up costing everyone more in the end. They actually told me to go through legal.

I ended up contacting Scott Kaufman of California Lemon Lawyers. It took a while after the demand letter and service because Triumph dragged it out (maybe in hopes of a bluff?), but they ended up settling before it went to court and I got what I had originally asked for, but now Triumph has to pay the legal fees too.

Good luck man! Your situation sounds way worse than mine so I think you should be getting a full refund.

 

[rick]

Personally, I doubt that any motorcycle or car manufacturer is going to buy a vehicle back without lawyers getting involved...

In theory, a manufacturer could simply follow the law without being compelled to by a consumer filing a lawsuit. California's lemon law also requires the manufacturer to pay the consumer's legal costs so, the manufacturer also has an economic incentive to follow the law and avoid a lawsuit as well.

The fact that I had to obtain legal representation doesn't bother me so much. It's nice to have someone on your side through this process. They way KTM (et al) behaved and the things they said was what shocked me so much.

It took a while after the demand letter and service because Triumph dragged it out (maybe in hopes of a bluff?), but they ended up settling before it went to court and I got what I had originally asked for, but now Triumph has to pay the legal fees too.

Seriously! It seemed like they really thought I'd go away if they just dragged it out long enough. Even after they knew I had obtained counsel.

From my layman's perspective, the law is very clear and most lemon law attorney's work on contingency and therefore tend to only take slam-dunk cases. I can't figure their mental process on all this.

I was at a BMW dealer checking out a candidate for the new commuter and told them a little bit about what I had been going through. The salesperson said that over the years he'd also seen some buyback's run through. He said that it seemed totally random about how the manufacturer would react. He said some guys had basically nothing go wrong, they'd demand a buyback and the manufacturer wouldn't hesitate to do so. Other time's he seen people that had really suffered with a horrible product and the manufacturer would fight it tooth and nail. We began imagining that the Mike Cooper's of the world may have a maximum quota for buyback's per month, timing with their last review or maybe just taking out personal issues on random consumers. Who knows?

 

[nine_inch_rear]

Maybe a good time to look at boring reliable japanese bikes? FZO7..FZO9..alot of bang per buck. Gluck in whatever you decide.

 

[nine_inch_rear]

I contacted Triumph directly about a buyback and they offered me any accessory I wanted from the parts or apparel catalog (LOL WUT how is a full arrow exhaust suppose to prevent my top end from grenading?!).

Couple years back, I read about a barfer who had the same issue with his new ducati. Except that I think he took up their offer on new wheels or exhaust or something like that. He agrees to these nice upgrades with a bike that still has a drivability problem. Not sure what happened in the end as the post died off. Hopefully it worked out in his favor, but sticking to your guns and going through all the proper channels obviously is the best way to go

 

[rick]

Maybe a good time to look at boring reliable japanese bikes?

Been doing that my whole life! Although, I've had warranty repairs on those too. ...Just nothing like this KTM.

I will say that after wrenching on Japanese bikes for most of my life, the Ducati and the BMW are pretty neat. Digging down to the valve cover on the 848 is horrible but, the rest is pretty dreamy. On the BMW, so far that boxer engine and shaft drive are looking nearly effortless to maintain.

 

[Phanuel]

Been doing that my whole life! Although, I've had warranty repairs on those too. ...Just nothing like this KTM.

I will say that after wrenching on Japanese bikes for most of my life, the Ducati and the BMW are pretty neat. Digging down to the valve cover on the 848 is horrible but, the rest is pretty dreamy. On the BMW, so far that boxer engine and shaft drive are looking nearly effortless to maintain.

The compromise is the clutch. Servicing that means splitting the bike in half.

 

[rick]

Clutch access is straight from the front now on the wet-heads!

 

[Phanuel]

Zee germans made something sensible? What alternate reality is this?

 

[rick]

Right? It's crazy! They also went from the threaded valve height adjusters to shims so, when they give they also take way.
I haven't done a valve adjustment yet but, it looks like the cams might be gear driven and you can lock the crank in positions so, it should still be pretty darn easy.

 

[Inner Nerd]

Been doing that my whole life! Although, I've had warranty repairs on those too. ...Just nothing like this KTM.

I will say that after wrenching on Japanese bikes for most of my life, the Ducati and the BMW are pretty neat. Digging down to the valve cover on the 848 is horrible but, the rest is pretty dreamy. On the BMW, so far that boxer engine and shaft drive are looking nearly effortless to maintain.

I ended up with a Super Tenere to replace the lemony Triumph. The only issue I had was with a sticky clutch lever that didn't have enough lube from the factory. Everything else in the last 24,000 miles was lube some bushings, change out oil and filters, replace the air filter, and tires. Everything else stayed in spec. That shaft drive for commuting though...

The best part: The Super Tenere was $10,800 brand new. It feels like 90% of the R1200GS, but at half the price. They get discounted like crazy because the dealerships can't get rid of those things!

 

[rick]

Bikes to consider... KTM. Nice job, Mike Cooper. But, you got your bonus, so this is just noise to you. Oh, and you say there's more to this story than we know? Yeah, of course. We knew you'd say that. You're prohibited from commenting? Yeah, we knew you'd say that too. Hope KTM is proud.

Ha! Is Mike Cooper is sniffing around on BARF? I guess that's not too surprising if so. What's his handle? My search-foo seems weak this morning.

 

[Yakoo752]

Couple years back, I read about a barfer who had the same issue with his new ducati. Except that I think he took up their offer on new wheels or exhaust or something like that. He agrees to these nice upgrades with a bike that still has a drivability problem. Not sure what happened in the end as the post died off. Hopefully it worked out in his favor, but sticking to your guns and going through all the proper channels obviously is the best way to go

when I took a cash offer for our lemon, it removed liability to the manufacturer of all PAST issues. Anything new would open up them for liability as well and from our understanding the time out of service requirement would not be waived. So I could continually go after them for everything - we sold the cars days after getting the check

 

[rick]

Since I saw this thread got linked to by KrustyKruser on this thread. I thought I'd give a final update:

It's all done. The RC390 is officially no longer my problem. I feel that KTM and Mike Cooper were awful to me even to their own detriment but, I am relieved that it's gone and this is over with.

I don't know if there's anything I could have done better aside from not buying the KTM in the first place. All I can think to advise if you're facing a similar problem is to be firm and lawyer up.

 

[ratlab]

did ktm buy it back?full amount?-was the outcome happier than the ownership?

 

[NorCal_SV650S]

Good to know I will NEVER buy a KTM now, especially a RC390...It was going to be my next bike too...

 

[RightCoastBias]

I'd still buy a KTM, they make some bitchin bikes and lemons are anomalies.

Glad the OP finally got a decent outcome, sucks KTM were such cunts about standing behind their bike.

 

[KrustyKruser]

Thanks for the update Rick, definitely will throw a caution flag everytime I see a KTM for sale, at least the India made ones.

 

[rick]

did ktm buy it back?full amount?-was the outcome happier than the ownership?

I can't disclose any financial terms (NDA). It's over with and I no longer have to constantly deal with the bike or unpleasant people at KTM so, I guess I'm "happy".

The lemon laws are pretty decent for consumers in California though. Motorcycles are not quite as well covered as cars but, this could have been harder in other states. Thankfully the law is on the consumers side and covers your legal fees. So, I am pretty happy with that!

Here's some of the bits of the law that happen to make my notes through all this for whatever reason:

• This shows that your warranty is extended for time spent in the shop:
  

  California Civil Code 1793.1(a)(2):
  The warranty period will be extended for the number of whole days that the product has been out of the buyer's hands for warranty repairs.

• This is part of where over 30 days in the shop might get you into lemon law territory:
  

  California Civil Code 1793.2(b)
  Where those service and repair facilities are maintained in this state and service or repair of the goods is necessary because they do not conform with the applicable express warranties, service and repair shall be commenced within a reasonable time by the manufacturer or its representative in this state. Unless the buyer agrees in writing to the contrary, the goods shall be serviced or repaired so as to conform to the applicable warranties within 30 days.

• Some other stuff:
  

  California Civil Code 1793.26(a):
  Any automobile manufacturer [...] is prohibited from doing either of the following:
  (1) Requiring, as a condition of the reacquisition of the motor vehicle, that a buyer [...] agree not
  to disclose the problems with the vehicle [...] or the nonfinancial terms of the reacquisition.
  (2) Including [...] a confidentiality clause, gag clause, or similar clause prohibiting the buyer or lessee
  from disclosing information to anyone about the problems with the vehicle, or the nonfinancial terms of the reacquisition of the vehicle by the manufacturer

Overall, if you think you might be getting into lemon law territory, you probably should lawyer up. Most of them are free and you can do almost the entire process beginning to end online.

 

[MikeGyver]

Thank you for posting your story and applicable information to make it easier for others to navigate this process.

 

[mrzuzzo]

KTM sucks... can't belive it took so long.

 

[Z3n]

That's very disappointing. I do love KTMs, but it's lame as hell to hear them jerk you around like this.