Long COVID Becoming Better Understood

[mercurial]

Good article in NYT today on long covid. I've been railing off and on, for years and to anyone who would listen, that long covid isn't a covid-specific phenomena, it's a generalized body response to a variety of viruses.

I came down with "long covid" about 8 years ago after a multi-month bout of what I believe was some kind of avian flu (possibly from a nest just outside my window I always left open; docs where never able to figure it out and many thought I was making it all up.) I had all the same symptoms, and I particularly remember this one in the article:

'In one study, patients with long-lasting Covid symptoms had unexpected responses to riding a bike. Despite having apparently normal hearts and lungs, their muscles were only able to extract a portion of the normal amount of oxygen from small blood vessels as they pedaled, markedly reducing their exercise capacity."

Anyway, I pursued a variety of approaches to get over it, and it was a real grind. But I did get over it and eventually regained my full health. One thing that was a real game changer was when I started taking Vinpocetine (preliminary study), which is a vasodillator that did wonders eliminating my brain fog. You can buy it at many holistic supplement stores. It's strong stuff so should be used with some caution; start slow.

There other more obvious effective approach was really going all-in on anti-inflammatory approaches to diet, stress, lifestyle. You kind of have to cut out all the shit food you were so addicted to (you can add it back later when you're better.) And finally breathing exercises are key, it allows you to retrain your damaged nerve fibers.

So, if you are struggling with this or know someone who is, maybe these ideas will help.

 

[Mike95060]

Thanks man. My cousin is a record setting open water swimmer and she’s been completely crushed by long Covid. I’m going to pass this along.

Any tips on an anti-inflammatory diet?

 

[mercurial]

Yea let's see. What worked for me was eliminating simple sugars, processed foods, and reducing gluten. Reducing certain forms of dairy (milk and yoghurt), reducing nightshades like tomatoes. These are all basic no brainers that most people consume excessively. Then as a general principal I chose to prepare food in a way that made it as easily digestible as possible, so nothing cold or raw.

The details might differ for your cousin, as her constitution is probably different from mine. But the theme is similar, subtract all the shit you know is probably bad, and then after each meal see how you feel, and eat more of what makes you feel good and less of what makes you feel bad. Also let go of conventional wisdom and be willing to accept that what your body needs might be very different than what news articles, nutritionists, and friends and family suggest. You learn what it needs through curiosity, an open mind, and intelligent experimentation.

Also there is something to be said about just being patient. Your cousin's mental health will play an element in the healing process, having a positive attitude will go a long way to getting her on the right track and staying there. I wish her the best of luck!

 

[CABilly]

Good article in NYT today on long covid. I've been railing off and on, for years and to anyone who would listen, that long covid isn't a covid-specific phenomena, it's a generalized body response to a variety of viruses.

I came down with "long covid" about 8 years ago after a multi-month bout of what I believe was some kind of avian flu (possibly from a nest just outside my window I always left open; docs where never able to figure it out and many thought I was making it all up.) I had all the same symptoms, and I particularly remember this one in the article:

'In one study, patients with long-lasting Covid symptoms had unexpected responses to riding a bike. Despite having apparently normal hearts and lungs, their muscles were only able to extract a portion of the normal amount of oxygen from small blood vessels as they pedaled, markedly reducing their exercise capacity."

Anyway, I pursued a variety of approaches to get over it, and it was a real grind. But I did get over it and eventually regained my full health. One thing that was a real game changer was when I started taking Vinpocetine (preliminary study), which is a vasodillator that did wonders eliminating my brain fog. You can buy it at many holistic supplement stores. It's strong stuff so should be used with some caution; start slow.

There other more obvious effective approach was really going all-in on anti-inflammatory approaches to diet, stress, lifestyle. You kind of have to cut out all the shit food you were so addicted to (you can add it back later when you're better.) And finally breathing exercises are key, it allows you to retrain your damaged nerve fibers.

So, if you are struggling with this or know someone who is, maybe these ideas will help.

Just a note to reiterate to use caution whenever using herbal/holistic medicines. Mostly if you already take Rx drugs. For example, if you take meds for blood pressure or erectile dysfunction, adding a potent vasodilator could be catastrophic. Best bet is to clear it with your doc first.

 

[DucatiHoney]

Glad to hear that you're better, Merc!

I would just caution folks about terms like "holistic". It is a true form of medicine and can be quite effective. However, it just means taking a complete picture of the patient and not only treating physical symptoms. A lot of people seem to have in their head that it means "natural" and "natural" can't be overdone and/or hurt you. Many, many pharmaceuticals are derived from plants--which are natural--and clearly can cause harm when used inappropriately. A person can harm themselves just drinking too much water, so...

I'm not a doctor, but I come from a medical family, so I'm sensitive to this and just want to make sure people stay safe! My mother in law worked for Whole Foods for a while, and omigawd.... well-meaning people, but you take them, sprinkle in a bunch of misinformation, and add someone like her who eagerly drinks the koolaid, and they can find themselves in health hot-water in a hurry. Big changes in diet, physcial activity, and medicines should always be cleared with a qualified physician, at least one.

Stay well, folks!

 

[Tally Whacker]

Arsenic and cyanide are both all-natural.

 

[Jammer]

So is anthrax.

 

[byke]

Anything you want to keep cold.

 

[Yakoo752]

Maybe this thread is a good fit since the other is closed

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5

tl;dr

~785 people brain scanned
~401 got infected
~401 got second brain scan ~110 days after infection
~384 uninfected got second brain scan in an approximal time period.

greater reduction in grey matter thickness and tissue-contrast in the orbitofrontal cortex and parahippocampal gyrus, (ii) greater changes in markers of tissue damage in regions functionally-connected to the primary olfactory cortex, and (iii) greater reduction in global brain size. The infected participants also showed on average larger cognitive decline between the two timepoints. Importantly, these imaging and cognitive longitudinal effects were still seen after excluding the 15 cases who had been hospitalised. These mainly limbic brain imaging results may be the in vivo hallmarks of a degenerative spread of the disease via olfactory pathways, of neuroinflammatory events, or of the loss of sensory input due to anosmia. Whether this deleterious impact can be partially reversed, or whether these effects will persist in the long term, remains to be investigated with additional follow up.

The brain fog is real...

 

[GAJ]

Maybe this thread is a good fit since the other is closed

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5

tl;dr

~785 people brain scanned
~401 got infected
~401 got second brain scan ~110 days after infection
~384 uninfected got second brain scan in an approximal time period.

greater reduction in grey matter thickness and tissue-contrast in the orbitofrontal cortex and parahippocampal gyrus, (ii) greater changes in markers of tissue damage in regions functionally-connected to the primary olfactory cortex, and (iii) greater reduction in global brain size. The infected participants also showed on average larger cognitive decline between the two timepoints. Importantly, these imaging and cognitive longitudinal effects were still seen after excluding the 15 cases who had been hospitalised. These mainly limbic brain imaging results may be the in vivo hallmarks of a degenerative spread of the disease via olfactory pathways, of neuroinflammatory events, or of the loss of sensory input due to anosmia. Whether this deleterious impact can be partially reversed, or whether these effects will persist in the long term, remains to be investigated with additional follow up.

The brain fog is real...

No differences looked for in terms of vaccinated and then infected vs unvaccinated and then infected it seems.

EDIT:

Found this clarification on BBC.

The most significant loss of grey matter was in the olfactory areas - but it is unclear whether the virus directly attacks this region or cells simply die off through lack of use after people with Covid lose their sense of smell.

It is also unclear whether all variants of the virus cause this damage.

The scans were performed when the original virus and alpha variant were prevalent and loss of smell and taste a primary symptom.

But the number of people infected with the more recent Omicron variant reporting this symptom has fallen dramatically.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-60591487

 

[N4teTheGreat]

I was reading another article on this and was struck by this bit

"So they don’t know if the participants actually lost their sense of smell or have experienced long-term symptoms in the disease’s wake. Some likely had asymptomatic cases."

I am pretty sure I got Covid at some point earlier in the pandemic, though I never had (or noticed) any symptoms at the time, I did start notice changes in the way some things smelled at some point. My soap smelled more astringent that I was used to and on a couple rides my bikes warm oil would smell like hot garbage (happily that's not the case anymore). Soap still smells weird to me, as does garlic and exhaust from catalized vehicles, but as far as I can tell my sense of taste was never impacted. Weird stuff.

 

[berth]

Found another article:

What doctors wish patients knew about long COVID

This is, I guess, "good news"

COVID-19 vaccines are “safe and effective, even though some patients may experience breakthrough infections,” said Dr. Sanghavi. “What is reassuring is that patients who were vaccinated, in those rare instances where they got a breakthrough infection those patients are 50% less likely to develop long COVID or post COVID syndrome.”

“The vaccines are effective. But in those rare instances where you do get an infection despite vaccination, this protects you from having post-COVID syndrome—there’s a double insurance.”

"Just the flu."

 

[Chadfe]

"breakthrough Covid" is just nu-speak for the vax didnt work and it was incredibly common for vaxxies to catch covid even with their third shot lmao

 

[Abacinator]

Don't

 

[Butch]

This guy is good
https://stanfordhealthcare.org/doctors/b/hector-bonilla.html

 

[GAJ]

"breakthrough Covid" is just nu-speak for the vax didnt work and it was incredibly common for vaxxies to catch covid even with their third shot lmao

You mean you can catch the Flu even though you get a Flu shot as well?

Wow, that is some ground breaking news from you right there.

I had no idea.

Not a single person of the many dozens I know who received a Covid regimen thought they were 100 percent immune but, oddly, anti vaxxers were under that impression.

If you are looking for 100 percent guarantees with medicine don't watch the drug ads on TV with all their disclaimers.

 

[mlm]

You mean you can catch the Flu even though you get a Flu shot as well?

Wow, that is some ground breaking news from you right there.

I had no idea.

Not a single person of the many dozens I know who received a Covid regimen thought they were 100 percent immune but, oddly, anti vaxxers were under that impression.

If you are looking for 100 percent guarantees with medicine don't watch the drug ads on TV with all their disclaimers.

Most of the vaccine skeptic arguments aren't even about the vaccine, but rather the people who promote and listen to them (the various arguments). Was listening to this the other day on NPR and found it interesting and relevant
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/929200098

...
MARANTZ: (Laughter) Well, I think when you start going down that rabbit hole, part of it is engaging in a kind of collective fan fiction. And part of it is, wait. Wait. Wait. But what if this is real? And it's flirting with that line. And, you know, I can get that to some extent.

ZOMORODI: Yeah.

MARANTZ: I get the thrill of being like, what if there really was an Illuminati? And it's just - to a certain kind of person at a certain desperate moment in their lives or just spend too much time on the Internet, they can't keep those blurry lines straight, and it becomes their entire reality.

ZOMORODI: I can understand how, in a time of financial problems, insecurity, this idea of being part of a movement and having meaning in your life and being, you know, part of, like, the revolucion (ph), right (laughter)...

MARANTZ: Absolutely.

ZOMORODI: Like, that's very exciting. Yeah.

MARANTZ: Yeah - part of the underground, part of the resistance and having secret knowledge that no one else can see except for your compadres. Yeah. It's just bizarre how far it can go.
...

Was part of a larger "Warped Reality" show. You can get transcripts by clicking the individual segments
https://www.npr.org/programs/ted-radio-hour/archive

 

[GAJ]

Most of the vaccine skeptic arguments aren't even about the vaccine, but rather the people who promote and listen to them (the various arguments). Was listening to this the other day on NPR and found it interesting and relevant

They ARE special, no doubt.

If you and I wouldn't take medicine unless it was perfect, with no side effects for a minority, we'd lead shorter lives.

 

[mlm]

They ARE special, no doubt.

If you and I wouldn't take medicine unless it was perfect, with no side effects for a minority, we'd lead shorter lives.

Another good quote from the transcript

...Real skepticism is being open-minded but not being so open-minded that your brain falls out, demanding evidence but not demanding evidence past the time when a question has been settled...

...And sometimes there just is consensus on something, and there's a certain cast of mind of a person who just doesn't want to hear that. It's a kind of addiction to feeling like you have secret access to knowledge that, you know, the boundaries of polite society doesn't want you to have....