Looking Through Turns

[Burning1]

The simple fact is that if you have enough grip to wind on the gas harder, you could have been cornering faster and you're not at the limit of grip.

Absolutely true. The bike would benefit from raising the rear end up and installing rear-sets. Despite the fact that I have photos of my elbow a few inches from the ground. The bike really is limited by cornering clearance, rather than traction.

 

[Burning1]

(Joe: I'm buying this on photo CD with my next paycheck. You can hold me to that.)

 

[Cycle61]

Ran a rear-facing camera this weekend at RFR, to get an idea of what I'm actually doing with my head and body in the corners. Seems to be working for me.

 

[Key007]

Kind of off topic but seeing as how the conversation has sort of shifted...


When making a turn, by moving your body towards the inside of the turn (leaning off the bike) you can decrease the lean angle of the bike itself (not the combined lean angle of myself and the bike, which is determined by the mechanics of the turn and cannot be changed). In essence in doing this you are increasing your ground clearance, right?

Now, I've seen pictures of people don't the exact opposite, leaning their bodies away from the turn, thus forcing the bike to lean even farther to get through the turn. Usually a picture like this is followed by a "I foresee a crash coming..." type comment.

So I just want to be sure that this type of body positioning is applicable only to higher speed maneuvers, right? During slow speed training- for example if I want to practice making slow tight u-turns, I have to move my body away from the direction of the turn, correct? In this case since I'm not worried about ground clearance I'm instead using my body as a counter-weight to help keep myself stable and to avoid having to put my foot down (the foot that is facing the inside of the turn).

Seeing as how the last few posts discussed ground clearance I thought I'd bring this up. I just want to make sure that my interpretation and application of these two different types of body positioning is correct!

 

[tzrider]

During slow speed training- for example if I want to practice making slow tight u-turns, I have to move my body away from the direction of the turn, correct? In this case since I'm not worried about ground clearance I'm instead using my body as a counter-weight to help keep myself stable and to avoid having to put my foot down (the foot that is facing the inside of the turn).

While I see a lot of people do this, I've never understood why it would be necessary. Whether you're hanging off the inside or pushing the bike under you, the "system" (bike + rider) must be in balance. In my experience, slow speed maneuvers can be completed as effectively without counterleaning as with. By going with the bike, you gain all of the advantages that come with having the bike a little more upright.

 

[Key007]

While I see a lot of people do this, I've never understood why it would be necessary. Whether you're hanging off the inside or pushing the bike under you, the "system" (bike + rider) must be in balance. In my experience, slow speed maneuvers can be completed as effectively without counterleaning as with. By going with the bike, you gain all of the advantages that come with having the bike a little more upright.

I see what you mean. So essentially there really is no right or wrong way for slow speed maneuvers, its whatever you feel more comfortable with?

 

[tzrider]

I see what you mean. So essentially there really is no right or wrong way for slow speed maneuvers, its whatever you feel more comfortable with?

For practical purposes, riders do fine either way.

Speaking for myself and my own riding, I prefer to form habits that work well in the greatest number of conditions and speeds possible. When making low speed maneuvers, I tend to just go with the bike. I neither hang off nor counter lean. This approach avoids excessive lean angle, which has a few advantages, even at low speeds. It also minimizes my reaction time, should I need to change direction, since my body need not move on the bike.

 

[DataDan]

Counterbalancing, as it is called, allows you to tighten a turn at a given steer angle. A purely geometrical effect decreases turn radius when lean angle is increased. You can prove this to yourself with a bicycle. With the same steer angle, it will track a larger circle when vertical than when leaned. Note that the lean angle referred to here is just the angle the motorcycle makes with the ground. Theoretical background here.

But there's another lean angle: the angle between the rider+bike center of mass, the contact patch, and the ground. The physics of a turning motorcycle demands that this lean angle balance out the centrifugal force defined by turn radius and speed.

To achieve the tightest possible turn radius, full steering lock must be augmented with the geometric benefit of extreme lean angle. But when sitting normally on the motorcycle, the center-of-mass lean angle would be too great and would overbalance the fairly small centrifugal force of the low-speed maneuver. You would fall into the turn. So to achieve proper balance when doing a full-lock, extreme-lean, low-speed turn, you have to move your body to the outside.

Here's Lee Parks on a Wing:

 

[louemc]

I see what you mean. So essentially there really is no right or wrong way for slow speed maneuvers, its whatever you feel more comfortable with?

I don't look at it so much as a right or wrong way, but...a range of ways...

Then the rider picks from that range, for what is most workable in the situation they are in at the moment.

In slow tight corners, there is a good chance that quick transitions from full left to full right (or visa versa) is in order. Staying upright and pretty centered...allows the quickest transitions, as you toss the bike down and lift it up, and over to the other side, down and up.

main thing...learn all the ways...use what is called for

Check out the Cops in cone competitions, or dirt bike antics through the trees, anything that is extreme.

 

[Underdog]

Look where you want to go. Alter your target as you progress.

 

[Key007]

Look where you want to go. Alter your target as you progress.

I had no idea this was how its done


Dan that photo is crazy... but proof that if he can do it on a clunky bike like that then I have no excuse not to be able to make tighter turns on my little two fiddy .

I think some of the major problems I was having stemmed from the fact that I wasn't turning the handle bars, but instead trying to counterbalance the bike with my body, and tilt the bike as far down as I could to make a tight turn (and now that I think about it is a very foolish method 'cause I'm not actually accomplishing anything!). I think I'm gonna go outside today and practice putting a conscious effort into turning the bars more. Hopefully after a few loops around my cul-de-sac I won't have to put my foot down anymore during those really steep turns.

Its exciting to know that at one time I thought making a u-turn in that box during the MSF was hard. Moving on up!

 

[Underdog]

I had no idea this was how its done


Dan that photo is crazy... but proof that if he can do it on a clunky bike like that then I have no excuse not to be able to make tighter turns on my little two fiddy .

I think some of the major problems I was having stemmed from the fact that I wasn't turning the handle bars, but instead trying to counterbalance the bike with my body, and tilt the bike as far down as I could to make a tight turn (and now that I think about it is a very foolish method 'cause I'm not actually accomplishing anything!). I think I'm gonna go outside today and practice putting a conscious effort into turning the bars more. Hopefully after a few loops around my cul-de-sac I won't have to put my foot down anymore during those really steep turns.

Its exciting to know that at one time I thought making a u-turn in that box during the MSF was hard. Moving on up!

Btw, you don't TURN the handlebars, you counter steer-- PUSH right to go right, push left to go left. And I'll reiterate-- LOOK where you want to go.

 

[afm199]

Btw, you don't TURN the handlebars, you counter steer-- PUSH right to go right, push left to go left. And I'll reiterate-- LOOK where you want to go.

Actually for low speed turns you do turn the bars. The rest of your statement is correct.

 

[Burning1]

Actually for low speed turns you do turn the bars. The rest of your statement is correct.

Nit pick: It's still counter steering, even at low speeds. E.g. you still counter steer to initiate the turn, and you counter steer (point the wheel into the turn) to keep the bike from falling over. The only time the bike is ever truly Ackerman (direct) steered is when the rider has his feet on the ground.

With that said... Valid point, and I think you'd be very hard pressed to counter steer without turning the handlebars.

 

[Key007]

Actually for low speed turns you do turn the bars. The rest of your statement is correct.

Good amount of slow speed drills these past few days as well, starting to notice a slight improvement in my riding.

 

[Zippy994]

I haven't read the other responses but I'll just add this:

Having recently gone back to street riding and occasionally taking the canyons home, I find it nearly impossible to look through turns. Way too may variables - namely: road conditions.

On the track, you can count on surface consistency. On the street, you can't. I ride with one eye on the road ahead and one on my surroundings.

 

[DataDan]

I haven't read the other responses...

And I haven't read the rest of your response.