Low speed low side - WTF??

[berth]

I do always worry about slippery pavement.

Yea, pretty sure two of my major get offs were slick pavement. Dew on a painted arrow or crosswalk that washed out the front, and something my rear tire hit as I was making a left turn on my scooter (I'm going on the crass assumption that it wasn't the obscene raw horsepower being applied to that rear tire at the time and breaking it free).

 

[stangmx13]

Thanks. Yeah, I think that’s about it. As always, smooth=good in the corners. Set it and forget it.

What do you mean?

If you mean "set your corner and wait for the exit" - I stopped thinking about cornering like that a while ago. Trail braking is the opposite of "set it". If you have some set lean angle and you are slowing, then your turning radius is decreasing. Nothing about the corner is static and "forget it" is minimized. Sure, in long corners there will be some time where you are chilling at the same speed and same lean angle, waiting for the exit. But those aren't THAT common.

If you accomplish that slowing with trail braking, your are maximizing grip of the front tire and decreasing risk by tightening your line. If you need to turn more because the tightening isn't enough, you already have max front grip and can either add lean angle or add braking. The opposite technique is brake before the turn, set your lean angle, then wait for the exit at a constant speed. This minimizes front grip during the turning and does not set you up well for the unexpected. Using EB to slow mid-corner is a mix of the two situtations. You are slowing so your line is tightening, but the front isn't loaded as well as it could be.

 

[Holeshot]

Tom's got significant experience on-track/ racing too, Rob. I think that's why he's miffed on the losing the front end so quickly. Abnormal crash for sure.

 

[ThinkFast]

Tom's got significant experience on-track/ racing too, Rob. I think that's why he's miffed on the losing the front end so quickly. Abnormal crash for sure.

Thanks. Yes, pretty much sums it up.

As for Rob’s input, I appreciate the info and will certainly chew on this awhile to see if I can glean something from it that could be applied to my ride.

 

[tzrider]

It was downhill and I was completely off the gas, so even with the bike fully loaded and heavy in the rear, I’m pretty sure the front was fully loaded and the additional steering input I made to tighten my line was too much for the tire to handle on that piece of pavement and it simply tucked.

I do agree, however, that if I hadn’t tried to adjust my line I would’ve probably made it. But only just. Crazy.

.

I see a few things for your consideration.

The turn looked to be off camber. If so, off camber will behave like a decreasing radius turn when the camber goes further off later in the corner. The camber did effectively go off more, as the downhill slope was added to the camber late in the turn.

Being off the gas probably contributed. It's appropriate to not be rolling on the gas when tightening your line, but once the lean angle change is completed, rolling the gas on will take weight and cornering load off the front tire. It being a downhill corner, the bike will pick up more speed when you roll on the gas lightly, so a slightly lower entry speed will allow for that.

Your inside arm looks rigid, as if there was still pressure on the inside bar after the new lean angle was set. This can contribute to losing the front.

 

[ThinkFast]

.

I see a few things for your consideration.

The turn looked to be off camber. If so, off camber will behave like a decreasing radius turn when the camber goes further off later in the corner. The camber did effectively go off more, as the downhill slope was added to the camber late in the turn.

Being off the gas probably contributed. It's appropriate to not be rolling on the gas when tightening your line, but once the lean angle change is completed, rolling the gas on will take weight and cornering load off the front tire. It being a downhill corner, the bike will pick up more speed when you roll on the gas lightly, so a slightly lower entry speed will allow for that.

Your inside arm looks rigid, as if there was still pressure on the inside bar after the new lean angle was set. This can contribute to losing the front.

Thanks, Andy. Some good points.

 

[Holeshot]

I don't see off throttle. I see on-throttle and maintaining same lean angle.

 

[tzrider]

I couldn’t tell what he was doing with the throttle, as there was no audio. As Thinkfast said he was off the throttle, I took him at his word. Also, being on the gas while adding lean angle is much more likely to make the rear slide than the front.

 

[monwren5]

I had the same problem on a GS in Mallorca, the tarmac was so polished... Never experienced that anywhere else.

 

[ThinkFast]

I had the same problem on a GS in Mallorca, the tarmac was so polished... Never experienced that anywhere else.

Thank you.

My final thought is that at the speeds I ride on the street, the only way I’m going to get into trouble on a dry, clean road surface is going to be due to my line, not traction. At the speeds I ride, I’m not anywhere near the edge of grip that street tires offer - at least on a “normal” road surface. Overcooking a corner due to too much speed or bad line choice is always a risk and that’s what I’m accustomed to managing to. But dumping because of the front losing traction is simply not a factor at the speeds I’m going, no matter how much late braking, mid-corner line correction, or on the gas/off the gas messing around I do. This is based on a couple hundred thousand street miles on various kinds of bikes.

So I’m going to put this down to oddball tarmac condition, which is supported by the research I’ve done on Spanish road construction materials, the bituplaning phenomena described in the research paper I shared in an earlier post and anecdotal evidence from people on this thread as well as in another forum where I posted this up.

Could better riding technique have prevented this? I believe it could’ve. Maybe I’ve gotten lazy and too comfortable with the amount of traction modern street tires provide, and in this case it wasn’t enough to hang on in a low-traction situation combined with less than perfect cornering technique.

My advice to others would be to ride carefully if you go to Spain. Seriously. And don’t become complacent about your riding technique, even with all the electronic nannies and superior tire compounds that we have today. We can all keep learning and refining. The goal is 100% correct technique every time.

 

[ThinkFast]

In the spirit of one of the sticky threads, Crashing Is Learning, I’d like to add this thought inspiring essay I read today. It is a wonderful meditation on falling, and the feelings of shame and self-doubt that a fall produces. It resonates with me a good bit as I continue to process my crash.

Why My Fall Made Me Feel So Ashamed
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/...e_code=1.5Uw.jOtL.bNMb3AwE6dR_&smid=url-share

I have reached my own conclusions about why this crash happened: because there was a less-than-expected level of grip in the pavement surface for the conditions that I couldn’t have known about; and the speed I was going put me over the limit of traction for the load I was carrying; which the sloped pitch of the road exacerbated. Despite such rationalizations, the short version is: I crashed.

And I hate that. I feel some level of shame for having done it, and rattled confidence in my riding, too. To some degree both are rational. I should be rattled. As for the shame, probably a little too self-absorbed - people I know will ask about it, and then likely forget it happened a year later. Most everyone has done it.

Anyway - thought I’d share this, as crashing can leave scars that may not be visible to others. Now I need to throw a leg over my bike and get back on it - haven’t done so since I got back from the trip.

 

[stratslingr77]

Tom,

Sorry to read about your crash and here's to a rapid recovery for you and your wife. Out of curiosity, did the bike you were riding have ESA? I'm sitting here wondering if this was one of those freak situations where the ESA was adjusting the ride stiffness at the exact moment you adjusted your line and maybe that negatively affected your traction. Just grasping at straws here...

 

[ThinkFast]

Tom,

Sorry to read about your crash and here's to a rapid recovery for you and your wife. Out of curiosity, did the bike you were riding have ESA? I'm sitting here wondering if this was one of those freak situations where the ESA was adjusting the ride stiffness at the exact moment you adjusted your line and maybe that negatively affected your traction. Just grasping at straws here...

Thanks. We’re both ok. My back still hurts a bit, but ribs are better. Bike was a newer 1250 and had D-ESA. At the speed we were going I’m pretty sure there’s no way we would’ve gone down had we been on any of the roads we’re used to riding on here - Mt Tam, up in the Sierra, etc.

 

[Hank Wong]

When a military pilot has had a mishap, the military communities have an unspoken policy of sending him or her back flying as soon as possible. They know from experience that delays and inquiries sap the pilots' confidence. So go ride, as soon as possible. It is enough analyzing.

 

[Holeshot]

Totally agree with Harry, Tom. a few years into my racing, I learned a super valuable lesson inadvertently; anytime I crashed and was able to continue racing that day, I forced myself to go through whatever turn was the accident site faster than I'd gone through before. Who knows if I actually went sucker through those sections, but that first time back through after the crash made any trepidation susbide in milliseconds. Still works, every time.

 

[ThinkFast]

Thanks, guys - I appreciate your input and encouragement. And yes, I never let a crash keep me off the bike back in my racing days. Back on the horse that threw ya’ and all that.

FWIW, this crash happened on day 2 of a 14 day tour, during which we covered around 4000 km, so I didn’t have much of a choice re getting back on; and I was fine with it. After a day or two of riding at the back of our group and keeping it to a very slow pace, I found myself moving back up toward the front and wanting to go more.

I’m sure I’ll get back on this horse. Like I said, lots of processing on this for me. And yes, analysis paralysis is what I don’t want to get into.

 

[Holeshot]

You know how to ride. Go ride...you've got tons of experience and on bikes, shit just happens some times. Contact patch the size of a baby finger is all that's keeping us from doing the same thing? Yup....it's not you, it's just is. No judgement from most of us, I'll say. Our time will come too! (mine did in May)

 

[tzrider]

You might consider riding in reduced traction conditions such as rain. I’m sure you have a method for assessing traction in unknown conditions and exercising that might bring your confidence back where you want it.

 

[ThinkFast]

You might consider riding in reduced traction conditions such as rain. I’m sure you have a method for assessing traction in unknown conditions and exercising that might bring your confidence back where you want it.

Thanks. Interesting thought. But I don’t want to move back to Wisconsin

But seriously, that is a great way to learn about traction. One of the most memorable track days I ever did (in a car as it happens) was a day that started out rainy and then gradually cleared with the track drying as well. The transition helped me really fine tune where the edge was. Pretty cool.

 

[tzrider]

Interesting you mention that scenario, as I’ve always felt the most productive days we’ve had at the Superbike School start wet and end dry. Riders have a well developed sense of traction at the end of those days and tend to have much better throttle control.