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Medical services taking short cuts in moto accidents?

:laughing

Awww ... look ... the dog-pile ... how cute ... nobody thought of that before ... awww ...

This thread is related to motorcycling via a gullible knee-jerk of a hearsay of a hearsay of a hearsay, without an iota of evidence. No different than eyewitnesses swearing to God they saw the motorcyclist splitting at 90mph. It's Fantasyland; 'people say, therefore it's true'.

Granted, I shouldn't have been on Scotland's case for yet another unfiltered post.

Now, back at the dog-piling.

You've become quite a grouch. It's too bad.
 
Yep. Kaiser for me has been very very good. They caught my stage 3 cancer ( throat, minimal symptoms) and had me under the knife in less than a week. They've been excellent for most of my problems.

A hint with Kaiser is that they are great for big problems and will throw resources at them. Don't expect sympathy if you go in for a broken toe or cold.

the ortho dept told me SoCal Kaiser just recently (within a few years) "upgraded" a broken collarbone from "ehh, just let it heal" to something they'll actually operate on :laughing

it might be tough to get them to work on something, but once they do they put in a crazy amount of effort.
 
I went into what is often described as a medical nightmare pit--Highland in Oakland--with a foot crushed so badly (plus with compartment syndrome that would have caused me to lose the foot and mebbe enjoy kidney failure as well) in a motorcycle wreck that it was a real wobbler whether my left foot shoulda been amputated or not.

Ex-Navy surgeon grinned and asked me, "so you up for a year or so of trying to put this back together? It's gonna be a real process, just to warn you."
Four surgeries, K-wire crucifixion, bone screws, a real savage of a kinky physical therapist, and 8 months unable to walk...but just as he promised, they saved the foot.

The point made above about having a trusted medical advocate or two to be physically present when decisions are made is vital. I was out of my gourd with pain by the time they started asking questions. I had about an hour window to get into surgery before the compartment syndrome killed the foot. You don't always have as much time or decision-making bandwidth or ability as you might think. I'm grateful to the folks who went in and spoke up on my behalf; I was also glad for the surgeons and nurses who really laid out my choices for me accurately.

And hey, I can walk and hike and ride again!
 
This advise to have a competent person speak on your behalf, do you expect this person to argue against and second guess the doctors advice?
If Im at the trauma center with a relative how would I know the right choice to make about an amputation?
 
Armchairing the docs after the fact is a slippery slope. If a doc believes amputation = 90% survival chance, and trying to save a limb = 60% survival chance, the doc will likely go for the amputation as many believe their goal is to save the life.

It's an interesting point about goals that may not align with the patient's.

In 2012, I experienced a pinched nerve in my neck that made my left hand go numb. I'm left handed. It affected my ability to do a number of things that had been important to me throughout my life, including playing guitar.

When this occurred, I was insured by Kaiser. They did some diagnosis and then proceeded down a very scripted protocol, starting with physical therapy. The therapist went through the motions, the condition did not improve and she eventually asked, "Do you make your living playing guitar?" When I answered no, she advised me to get used to not being able to play.

Kaiser continued to seem institutionally disinterested. I changed to a PPO plan sometime later and then found a neurology clinic local to me. Their initial approach would have been to try regenerative therapies until they saw the MRI results. They instead fast-tracked me to a surgeon.

The surgeon is a motorcyclist. He understood what I needed to be able to do with my neck, how impact resistant I needed to be, etc. He also understood my priority was to regain function in my hands. His proposed treatment was very invasive. He suggested I get other opinions and told me that each one would likely be different, as the spinal damage involved several levels and the options were not straightforward.

I did see another surgeon, who had a great manner, was friendly, confident and engaged. He recommended a less invasive procedure that would address the numbness on my left hand but would not address some of the other symptoms.

At that point, I began to wonder if the first surgeon might have been over prescribing treatment. I saw him again to go over the second opinion. He explained that the other approach would work as far as it went but would not address all of my loss of function.

In the end, I was convinced that though his approach was going to be more painful and a longer process, he had listened to what my priorities were. He knew that I valued being able to stay active more than anything else, including being pain free. His treatment would preserve mobility, allow function to return and would be stable. It would not necessarily reduce pain.

The surgery was done in late August and I am back to normal activity now. A few things still hurt, as expected, but I can feel my hands and strength has returned.

There were a few lessons in the experience for me, among them that our impressions of good or bad treatment are partly driven by what our desired outcome is and whether we find someone who will try to achieve that.
 
I have first hand experience with anti motorcyclist rhetoric in the ER.
Me and my KLR had a falling out (high side!) . My get-off had my buddies giving me high marks for height and distance but caused me to seek immediate medical attention before I could be awarded a medal..
I was finally admitted after waiting several hrs in ER waiting room...while on the gurney I overheard nurse describe me to a colleague as "some stupid motorcyclist who had crashed"....they took ex-rays, told me nothing was wrong and sent me home .
I was in the worst pain in my life..received a call later that evening that someone took a second look at my ex-ray and I should probably see my Dr in the morning.
Mr DR did a quick check and sent me immediately back to same Hospital (literally right next door to his practice) for a CT. ..Oops, sorry, your T-10 is in three pieces..
I have always wondered if my treatment would have been better if I was in street clothes.
So I agree, if at all possible, have someone there advocating for you!
DT
 
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Lets cool the dog pile.

I started this not as a slam on the medical professionals, rather as a PSA as noted. Being a life long bone breaker/head basher I have had some amazing DR's and support. I have friends who are DR's and they have my respect and admiration as a profession. So do the nurses that care for you.

For the last 10 years I have had Kaiser and they have saved my bacon, replaced worn out parts and frustrated me at times as well.

Nemo's journey and tzriders too were good examples of decisions made and ultimately a successful outcome.

I had an old Army field Dr. when I was young. He did an amazing job relocating a dislocated wrist. I would believe today I would have had surgery to fix a hand sticking straight up. With experience and guile he manipulated the bone back in place. Same guy had missed my torn ACL a few years later that led to a life long knee problem.

They are human. They generally try their best as most good people do.
This was not meant to bash the industry just to offer some advice should life have you in a situation that sucks.
 
I got an email from a gent basically passing information from a ER Nurse to him. He was a closed friend of one of our Gone But Not Forgotten members.

He found a discussion with the nurse very disturbing and wanted me to pass on the following to our community.

If you are in an accident and have a severe extremity injury where the take of the hospital is to amputate the foot or portion of the leg/hand or arm demand a second opinion if it is not a life threatening injury.

The nurse who he says is a long time health professional, felt the ER Doctors were taking quick actions that end up saving money vs. doing more of a lengthy process which could save the leg/arm/hand because the ongoing additional surgeries and invasive rehab is more expensive to the provider.
He said she felt two recent amputations where in her opinion, not necessary and with more extensive procedures the limb could have been saved.

Because of the relationship with our lost friend they were discussing motorcycling and she brought up her concern. He brought it to me because of his feeling this could be true.

I am not attacking the health care system. I am just passing info to you to potentially share with your loved ones and for yourself to use should something terrible put you in that position. This may be applicable to other types of accident injuries of course.

Call it a public service announcement to be taken for what it is worth to you.

I think something like this was posted before on the forum by someone else, long time ago.
 
As for you the patient making decisions. If you are in shock or been given morphine your intellect will be reduced to a 5 year olds level. When I broke my ankle I finally told them no more morphine after hours and hours of it. I couldn't stay awake and when I woke it took 15 minutes to swim through the pain rember my budist training and breath the pain down.

As for ER staff. I've hung out with several docs and nurses. I'd say they do a strong job at compartmentalizing their work. To them it's just a job and they rather party then talk about it. Me as a carpenter, I love talking about my job and partying at the same time.

And for serious injuries, like a mangled limb. It's about blood flow and the countdown clock. That was my ankle. They had to first open it up, look inside, and see if there was enough veins intact to bring blood to the sliced up bone bits and tissue to recover.

Also, after an impact of force, be very watchful for compartmental bruising.

And there's risk vs benefit thinking. The Doc makes a decision to save or remove. If it heals terrible then they take on responsibility for that choice.
 
I got an email from a gent basically passing information from a ER Nurse to him. He was a closed friend of one of our Gone But Not Forgotten members.

He found a discussion with the nurse very disturbing and wanted me to pass on the following to our community.

If you are in an accident and have a severe extremity injury where the take of the hospital is to amputate the foot or portion of the leg/hand or arm demand a second opinion if it is not a life threatening injury.

The nurse who he says is a long time health professional, felt the ER Doctors were taking quick actions that end up saving money vs. doing more of a lengthy process which could save the leg/arm/hand because the ongoing additional surgeries and invasive rehab is more expensive to the provider.
He said she felt two recent amputations where in her opinion, not necessary and with more extensive procedures the limb could have been saved.

Because of the relationship with our lost friend they were discussing motorcycling and she brought up her concern. He brought it to me because of his feeling this could be true.

I am not attacking the health care system. I am just passing info to you to potentially share with your loved ones and for yourself to use should something terrible put you in that position. This may be applicable to other types of accident injuries of course.

Call it a public service announcement to be taken for what it is worth to you.

Thanks for the info. Just wow, I am actually disgusted by that. :wtf
 
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