MISTAKES: A common theme in crashing

[ThinkFast]

I think that if a rider has to more than occasionally trust their bike to get them through a high stress or high risk situation while riding on the street, then they should re-examine their judgment to see where their mistake actually starts. Having to trust the bike is an indication that the riders judgment and skill are sub-par.

Harsh, Enchanter, harsh. But true.

That said, a more actionable response might be along the lines of, "Sounds to me like you are ready for a track day or two. The lessons you learn there will help you get to a new level of skill and confidence, both of which will help you stay out of situations like that."

 

[LadyRider600rr]

I think that if a rider has to more than occasionally trust their bike to get them through a high stress or high risk situation while riding on the street, then they should re-examine their judgment to see where their mistake actually starts. Having to trust the bike is an indication that the riders judgment and skill are sub-par.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by trusting the bike.

What i meant by trusting the bike was that when you are first learning to push and lean into a turn, you don't realize that the bike can do a lot more than you feel like it can do. And it takes a level of trust to get to the point where you can execute a skilled leaning turn. When I first started learning how to turn in curves, I didn't feel like I could push down past a certain point without dropping the bike. I felt like gravity would take over and the bike would just fall over and lowside. I did not trust that the bike was capable of staying on its wheels even being almost horizontal. I did not mean that you need to trust the bike to get out of a high risk situation, I mean that you need to trust the bike primarily in order to learn how to execute a lean into a curve. I have watched motorcycle races and seen knees drag on the ground, I know it can be done, but when I first started riding, I didn't feel like I could do it. It took me awhile to get to the point where i could trust my bike to not fall over. Once I finally learned to trust the bike and what it was capable of, I was able to execute more skilled leans. But there have been situations where I have been caught off guard by a blind corner in a technical curve and I had to do an even more skilled lean than I was used to and if I had not been able to trust my bike's capacity to corner, i would have likely crashed.

You are correct in what you are saying, that just isn't what I was saying when I was talking about learning how to trust your bike and what it can do.

 

[bigorange1970]

I think everyone, even the most experienced riders could benifit from continuous training on their bike since they are perishable skills. The track is probably a good place to get that done. I got what you were saying lady rider.

 

[LadyRider600rr]

I agree. Continuous training is beneficial to everyone. I think everyone has room for improvement Even the most experienced riders makes mistakes and have off days, and even they can stand to learn new tricks and better their old ones.

 

[Enchanter]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by trusting the bike.

What i meant by trusting the bike was that when you are first learning to push and lean into a turn, you don't realize that the bike can do a lot more than you feel like it can do. And it takes a level of trust to get to the point where you can execute a skilled leaning turn. When I first started learning how to turn in curves, I didn't feel like I could push down past a certain point without dropping the bike. I felt like gravity would take over and the bike would just fall over and lowside. I did not trust that the bike was capable of staying on its wheels even being almost horizontal. I did not mean that you need to trust the bike to get out of a high risk situation, I mean that you need to trust the bike primarily in order to learn how to execute a lean into a curve. I have watched motorcycle races and seen knees drag on the ground, I know it can be done, but when I first started riding, I didn't feel like I could do it. It took me awhile to get to the point where i could trust my bike to not fall over. Once I finally learned to trust the bike and what it was capable of, I was able to execute more skilled leans. But there have been situations where I have been caught off guard by a blind corner in a technical curve and I had to do an even more skilled lean than I was used to and if I had not been able to trust my bike's capacity to corner, i would have likely crashed.

You are correct in what you are saying, that just isn't what I was saying when I was talking about learning how to trust your bike and what it can do.

Ah. I get ya'. I agree with you.

 

[two wheel tramp]

I understood what LadyRider meant by trusting the bike. It's comforting, personally, to know that my bike CAN lean over through a turn and do darn near anything I ask it to while also remembering that *I* am the limiting factor in my bike's abilities. I've been on my GS500 for 5000 miles now and I feel like I've used maybe 10%-20% of the bike's abilities.

I had a scary moment riding last weekend. I was on a new road and it was a hairpin turn. Fortunately, I was not going very fast but I came to the crest in the road to realize that I needed to turn, sharply, to the left. Ahead of me all I saw was wall and I had an "OH SHIT- WALL" moment before I looked sharply left and rolled a little on the throttle. I made it through just fine but with an elevated heart rate. Again, making it through had a lot to do with riding cautiously to start with. I hate having to brake through turns. Before is okay, through.... everything I've read says this isn't a good idea.

What I've learned, too, is that if I am riding a lot of new roads, I need to limit my saddle time or give myself a long break to let my brain rest for a while. Also, I'm doing my first track day October 17th and my goal is to become more confident in my turning.

 

[LadyRider600rr]

I understood what LadyRider meant by trusting the bike. It's comforting, personally, to know that my bike CAN lean over through a turn and do darn near anything I ask it to while also remembering that *I* am the limiting factor in my bike's abilities. I've been on my GS500 for 5000 miles now and I feel like I've used maybe 10%-20% of the bike's abilities.

I had a scary moment riding last weekend. I was on a new road and it was a hairpin turn. Fortunately, I was not going very fast but I came to the crest in the road to realize that I needed to turn, sharply, to the left. Ahead of me all I saw was wall and I had an "OH SHIT- WALL" moment before I looked sharply left and rolled a little on the throttle. I made it through just fine but with an elevated heart rate. Again, making it through had a lot to do with riding cautiously to start with. I hate having to brake through turns. Before is okay, through.... everything I've read says this isn't a good idea.

What I've learned, too, is that if I am riding a lot of new roads, I need to limit my saddle time or give myself a long break to let my brain rest for a while. Also, I'm doing my first track day October 17th and my goal is to become more confident in my turning.

Thanks! You're situation was exactly what I was trying to explain! I think you are right, braking in that situation is the wrong way to go. Definitely more harm than good. The best situation is to give is to open up the throttle nice and steady, trust the bike and lean into it and be comitted to the turn. But it can be really steady. Once you are through though, the rush is really nice.

 

[Holeshot]

You guys/ girls should get used to doing things that are somewhat counter intuitive: braking when in a corner, or before a corner beyond your let off brake marker. The point should be obvious, but there's gonna be a time when you won't be able to ride in a correct manner, or doing so will put yourself on the ground. That was kinda the theme I was aiming for here: unconventional methods to make yourself safe that may not be correct riding, but are smart actions for a shitty situation.

I'd much rather lose the front then hit something in front of me...so I'm damn well gonna try and slow as much as I can before I have to add massive lean angle...and if I still need to brake and add lean angle cause there's no other choice (I'm in way deep), I'm gonna try my best to make it work.

 

[horsepower]

You guys/ girls should get used to doing things that are somewhat counter intuitive: braking when in a corner, or before a corner beyond your let off brake marker. The point should be obvious, but there's gonna be a time when you won't be able to ride in a correct manner, or doing so will put yourself on the ground. That was kinda the theme I was aiming for here: unconventional methods to make yourself safe that may not be correct riding, but are smart actions for a shitty situation.

I'd much rather lose the front then hit something in front of me...so I'm damn well gonna try and slow as much as I can before I have to add massive lean angle...and if I still need to brake and add lean angle cause there's no other choice (I'm in way deep), I'm gonna try my best to make it work.

This is so true. Like when you first learn to drive a car, you do it 100% to the book.
Then you realize that the rest of the world can throw shit at you and you have to improvise; Being a to the letter MSF rider in a split second decision can get you into huge trouble in certain situations.
I say it all the time but the track really helps one learn to think "Out of the Box" when it comes to how far you can brake, lean, adapt to the varying scenarios presented.

Great info here.

 

[RRrider]

This is so true. Like when you first learn to drive a car, you do it 100% to the book.
Then you realize that the rest of the world can throw shit at you and you have to improvise; Being a to the letter MSF rider in a split second decision can get you into huge trouble in certain situations.
I say it all the time but the track really helps one learn to think "Out of the Box" when it comes to how far you can brake, lean, adapt to the varying scenarios presented.

Great info here.

+1

I'm doing my first track day October 17th and my goal is to become more confident in my turning.

Awesome...where you going and with whom?

 

[two wheel tramp]

I've braked through corners before, very carefully, sometimes not so carefully. I just try to avoid it. I was the same in my truck andI tried to avoid braking through corners while driving.

I passed the 5000 mile mark this weekend and I've definitely learned that I need to think on my feet (or in the seat, as it were) and choose the best response for the situation. In the scenario described above I wasn't going fast because I was riding cautiously and within my limits. I just didn't see that I had to make a sharp turn until a little later than I would have liked. In that case, a little throttle and turning my head in the direction I wanted to travel were the right responses. If I have the choice of going off the road and braking... "Hello Mr. Brake Lever!"

I'm going to buttonwillow with track tactics for their beginner's course. Connie is dragging my tuckus there. I'm kinda sorta stupid excited about it.

 

[Enchanter]

I'm continually caught by surprise by what people think that the basic MSF course is, and then base their opinions on what they think it is rather than what it really is.

It isn't sold as, nor is it intended to be the only way to ride a motorcycle. It is designed to be the best way to get the basic skills required to start riding a motorcycle. Motorcycle kindergarten.

 

[budman]

True... MSF course is just the beginning of learning... us old guys did not have it.

Wish it was there, but we just had a friend or a dad or.. uncle. A few pointers and off we went. I was lucky in that I started at 8 on a dirt bike and by the time I was 13 or so had a pretty good grasp on the moto. The street at 15 changed things a bit. I had good skills, big balls and no real "street riding mind skill set". I have come to learn that the SRMSS is one of the most important things the rider develops.

Understanding what is smart and what is stupid and how many stupid drivers there are is developed over time. MSF can't teach that to any degree that you need as a rider.. so you need to work on it on your own.

You can actually do some off it in a cage if you think about it like your on two.
I took great care teaching my kids this when they started driving. So far so good..

All 5 kids are driving and no boom booms.

Cootz.. great that your going.. props to Connie for getting you to go!
You will open your physical skill set and enhance the mental as well.

Have fun.. and can't wait to see a write up and some big smiles!!

 

[two wheel tramp]

I'm continually caught by surprise by what people think that the basic MSF course is, and then base their opinions on what they think it is rather than what it really is.

It isn't sold as, nor is it intended to be the only way to ride a motorcycle. It is designed to be the best way to get the basic skills required to start riding a motorcycle. Motorcycle kindergarten.

Does this mean I'm almost ready for first grade?

True... MSF course is just the beginning of learning... us old guys did not have it.

Wish it was there, but we just had a friend or a dad or.. uncle. A few pointers and off we went. I was lucky in that I started at 8 on a dirt bike and by the time I was 13 or so had a pretty good grasp on the moto. The street at 15 changed things a bit. I had good skills, big balls and no real "street riding mind skill set". I have come to learn that the SRMSS is one of the most important things the rider develops.

Understanding what is smart and what is stupid and how many stupid drivers there are is developed over time. MSF can't teach that to any degree that you need as a rider.. so you need to work on it on your own.

You can actually do some off it in a cage if you think about it like your on two.
I took great care teaching my kids this when they started driving. So far so good..

All 5 kids are driving and no boom booms.

Cootz.. great that your going.. props to Connie for getting you to go!
You will open your physical skill set and enhance the mental as well.

Have fun.. and can't wait to see a write up and some big smiles!!

I can't wait, either.

 

[Richjc]

It doesn't matter how small the bike is, you still can crash it if you go too fast. i did that so I know it the best. I think I pushed my bike 110% when the peg hit the ground.

I learned that not respecting the road signs pays dearly.

 

[BritMark]

Good point but if you are fortunate enought to survive crossing the DY - you'd be well advised to ask yourself how you got yourself into danger in the first place. Try considering two points:
a) your position in the lane as you approach, on a public road this should be on the outside line, so near the centre of the road on a righthander for example, this optimises your forward vision and try to aim to apex slightly after the maximum turn point
b) the Vanishing Point (VP) and when it is coming towards you. For those not familiar with this concept it is when approaching a turn the furthest point you can see down the road, or the point where the two sides of the road appear to meet. This tells you where the road is going and whether or not it's tightening. If the VP appears to be coming towards you then lower your speed and when it starts moving away you have the first sign that the road is straightening. We use it for blind bends to give us early warning of whether the bend is tightening, to what extent and the direction it is going in.
With these practices mastered (for me it took about 2 years) you're very unlikely to go in too hot and won't need know what to do if you cross the DY in the first place!

 

[Outta Control]

It doesn't matter how small the bike is, you still can crash it if you go too fast. i did that so I know it the best. I think I pushed my bike 110% when the peg hit the ground.

I learned that not respecting the road signs pays dearly.

On a side note. I had a student last weekend stated that his buddy wears those "Nazi" helmets around town and a full face for long distance rides.

I then asked him what the difference between a local crash and a long distance crash.

I get this :|

 

[Holeshot]

Good point but if you are fortunate enought to survive crossing the DY - you'd be well advised to ask yourself how you got yourself into danger in the first place. Try considering two points:
a) your position in the lane as you approach, on a public road this should be on the outside line, so near the centre of the road on a righthander for example, this optimises your forward vision and try to aim to apex slightly after the maximum turn point
b) the Vanishing Point (VP) and when it is coming towards you. For those not familiar with this concept it is when approaching a turn the furthest point you can see down the road, or the point where the two sides of the road appear to meet. This tells you where the road is going and whether or not it's tightening. If the VP appears to be coming towards you then lower your speed and when it starts moving away you have the first sign that the road is straightening. We use it for blind bends to give us early warning of whether the bend is tightening, to what extent and the direction it is going in.
With these practices mastered (for me it took about 2 years) you're very unlikely to go in too hot and won't need know what to do if you cross the DY in the first place!

All good points, however the intent was aimed at; when it all goes wrong, don't wonder how that happened, instead have a plan to get out of danger. This does, alot of times, result in non-traditonal riding/ escape plans.

 

[311jrodk3]

I just didn't see that I had to make a sharp turn until a little later than I would have liked. In that case, a little throttle and turning my head in the direction I wanted to travel were the right responses.

I couldn't agree more. I was dumbfounded when I first realized that where you look is where the bike will go, good or bad lol. That simple concept has helped me just as much or more as learning how to handle my bike in sketchy situations.

 

[dirtbag]

Riding defensively

4. SIGHT YOUR PATH TO SAFETY. Find a route to safety, by avoiding the biggest risk factor (usually this is an auto). Collisions that are multi vehicle are something I'd avoid at all costs. Spot a clean route and go for that rout

great post ! I liked sight you path to safety.

This made me think of also using it Before a crash.

I am very aggressive driver have had road rage often in the past, but I trying to change. I was told many years ago that to drive safely .Especially on 2 wheels look for a exit path always while you are driving and this is best, rather then trying beat every other driver down the road . As we all know at anytime there is a car somewhere that may cut us off . I know a lot of us know this but how often do we think about a exit plan on a on going basis ? On two wheels we are all a target . situations happen and there is no other choice but to go for it and save your butt . Also like the law enforcement says you should think about how to avoid a ticket before you get pulled over. my .02