New or C Group track riders

[Z3n]

i think for me, the biggest thing I really want some tutelage in is proper body positioning throughout turns and other situations...

i understand the basic idea ... u want to move your weight along with your bike through a turn to minimize lean angles.. and its best to do this right before the turn in preparation..

but yea proper body positioning is a mystery to me... how far up or back should i be sitting... should i be supporting all my forward weight on my knees with my back straight? (this puts a lot of strain on my back hah)

sometimes i wonder if being 6'2 makes the motions a little more awkward for me...

I used to sit upright, and slow the bike with my legs, until Doc Wong was nice enough to show me that if i bend my arms, i can come in at a much better angle for steering inputs, and rest on tank with my chest. Also, while it feels a little different, the bike seems to go through the turn with remarkably less lean angle for a given corner speed. Hanging off like this means i have to be going faster to drag a knee for a given amount of lean angle. In the end, though, you'll try a bunch of different styles and find what works best for you. There's many different styles, and it's more than possible to ride fast using all of them. Even at the higheset levels, you'll see that some riders hang off more or less than others. The difference in the style are more subtle there, but they're still present.

 

[dubels]

throttle control, bodying positioning, racing lines (including safe outside passing techniques), brake markers, being comfortable on a race track without looking back, suspensions adjustments (how to read your tire).

Basicly what Z2 has to offer in its novice school. It also helps to read twist of the wrist II. I haven't finished it but from what I have read and Z2 school I have become 10x smoother and faster without even dragging my knee yet and started passing people on the outside during my second trackday. I suggest for every C group rider to try at least two-three session with the suspension setup that they use for the street that way they can leanr the track and get comfortable faster but once you get going suspension adjustments really allow you to fly.

 

[NorCal Factory]

1.) As Yogi Berra would say... Don't try to go too fast, too fast

2.) If you are passing most of the people in your group and have makers for your braking, turn-in points and apexes and can hit them consistently while using 2/3 of the track - ask the track day provider to try the next group.

Most people agree that B groups seem to have more incidents and disparity of riding skill.

A lot of time the B- or C group allows for more consistent lap times - it's easier to get by them, then you have open track.

Ask for help from the instructors, read TOTW and other books and apply them. Work from a plan for each session - with notes.

Go to Keigwins novice school.

 

[Espumoso]

Having done a single Z2 day in the novice school, on my next track day I'll be focusing on input controls (braking, downshifting, throttle control). I was pretty inconsistent in all three areas and it makes braking markers, entry points, etc much more difficult to use effectively; which would be tier 2 for me at this point.

Also in tier 1 are speed appropriate lines that allow safe outside passing by faster riders, or vice-versa if you're doing the passing.

Down the list for me are racing lines, body positioning--unless it is really bad, or you have a bike without much clearance.

Finally, and I don't think this was stressed enough (in the classroom) is all things *mental*. For new track riders there is a ton floating around in your head and it gets tiring.

My instructor at Z2 recommended skipping an afternoon session because she could tell my mind was fading.

Best advice ever. Went out after resting the noodle and had the best laps of the day.

 

[uraniaclio]

A lot of time the B- or C group allows for more consistent lap times - it's easier to get by them, then you have open track.

I found the exact opposite. My lap times varied by 12 seconds and T-Hill and 7 at Infineon. In B, I was within 3 seconds at Infineon and 3 seconds at T-Hill. A lot easier to run consistent laps without traffic for me. I'm a slow noob though. Good passing skills takes some time I think. Tough to work on fast lines when you're taking funky lines through majority of turns trying to pass. I got called out bad for bad lines last track day even though I was passing.

I think you can learn faster in C group. Running slower allows you to correct the bad things you're doing at a slower pace quicker.
But there is certain unpredictability you have to get used to and deal with. For sure B group allows u to go faster. But I also hear B group has the most bad crashes.

 

[nickler]

I moved up to B group after I started passing the same people in a session. It has its pros and cons-- yes alot more egos there and you definitly have to watch out for a lot of 1ks parked in the corners but you can never get faster in the c group. If your riding around passing everyone in C group it is not fair to them because they are there to ride with the same paced people. Look PTT does an excelent job of weeding out the out of control guys and reminding them why they are there and I am sure the other trackday providers do the same. A great pro is getting behind that guy who is a little faster and watching his lines and braking points for awhile. You also get more comfortable being passed.

 

[Carlo]

Z3n, don't the coaches invite you to join the B group when they think you're ready?

From what you're saying, it seems like you ought to be riding with the B group. (keeping in mind, I'm still a "c-group" rider myself)
Once I think I'm ready to move up, I plan to just ask one of the coaches if he/she thinks I'm ready for it. Have you talked to them about it?

 

[Z3n]

Z3n, don't the coaches invite you to join the B group when they think you're ready?

From what you're saying, it seems like you ought to be riding with the B group. (keeping in mind, I'm still a "c-group" rider myself)
Once I think I'm ready to move up, I plan to just ask one of the coaches if he/she thinks I'm ready for it. Have you talked to them about it?

I haven't done an open trackday since then, i did however do the reg pridmore class. They moved me into the "A" group in the middle of my second session. (Reg Pridmore classes only have 2 groups) I'm going with the B group for sure on my next trackday though, it was simply a passing fest in the B group at the pridmore class.

I should note however, that there was a much wider assortment of bikes at the pridmore class then there would be at your typical trackday. Most of those people probably wouldn't have been on a track otherwise.

Out of all of the riders at the trackday, the only ones that were passing me were the track instructors and this one amazing kid on an Kawi Green SV650. I figure that most of the other people were running around my pace, maybe a little faster, maybe a little slower. There were few enough people in the A group (around 8-10) that most of us spread out pretty far and pretty much had the track to ourselves as we wanted. Also, there was a lot less ego clashing there...people were more interested in their pace, not the pace of those around them. It was actually a really good environment for working on my abilities and techniques rather than worrying about some jackass stuffing me. Also, it certainly didn't hurt to have Reg there to help out!

 

[Var]

reading this thread helped me out a lot. I'm doing my first trackday on the 16th and i've signed up for C-group although everyone says i'll do fine in B-group. I'm glad i signed up for C now after reading this thread.

Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

 

[afm199]

Ask instructor to ride with you and make an evaluation.

Reggie A group is like medium B group in other outfits.

 

[Z3n]

Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

Nope. He's the rider in front, he has right of way, it's my job to execute the pass safely and considerately. The speed difference can be extreme, but if it is that extreme, you should be in the next group up. Also, you'll learn to ID the slower people by their bikes, and when you see them coming up you'll know to be careful, to make sure you're not closing too fast.

Also, vision lines, lane space, etc. is all entirely different on the track. It's really not that big a deal, you just have to get used to the idea of passing people. I had never done a midcorner pass before i got to the track. Also, you've got so much more LOS through the corners at the tracks that i've been through, you'd have to be really unaware to bash into someone midcorner. There's typically only a few riders out in your section if things are spaced out right, so you typically have a good idea of who's in front of you. Those behind you you shouldn't worry about. Just try not to push them off the track as they come around you

Honestly, 90% of my passing was done in the straights anways. It's really easy to pass on the straights regardless of what bike you're running in the C group (anything but a 250, that is), because most of the people on literbikes aren't even full on the gas down the straights...and if you're decently skilled, you can pull enough corner speed that their HP advantage is almost non-existant. Also, most of them will roll off the gas super early so if you're willing to make and trust your braking markers, you'll have no problem passing there too.

Start out in the C group. You've never been on the track before, right? It helps to have some idea of where you're going before you get blown off your bike over and over. In my opinion, as long as you can find a good place to run on your own (get out early or hotpit to wait for a clear spot on the track), C group is ideal for building comfort, lines, etc. on the track. You don't have to worry about someone stuffing you or anything,, it's pretty laid back, and if you feel that you should be moved up, talk to an instructor and they'll help you figure out where you should be. I probably would have been ok in the B- group on my 2nd trackday, but i chose to stick with the C group for my comfort and probably learned more that way. My next trackday, though, i'm going to move to the B group. It's time, i think.

Ernie, thanks for the heads up...good to know i'll be ok in the B group at my next trackday.

 

[uraniaclio]

reading this thread helped me out a lot. I'm doing my first trackday on the 16th and i've signed up for C-group although everyone says i'll do fine in B-group. I'm glad i signed up for C now after reading this thread.

Question for Z3n - if you're draggin knee or otherwise going fast around a corner and there's a super nub-cake just parked when you come around, aren't you presenting a danger to him and yourself?

Var,
It's better to start off low and move up. First track days can be overwhelming with nerves and anxiety so last thing you want is to feel pressured to "go" from the first lap. Most are real good about moving riders up. All you have to do is ask.

You can drag knee being the backmarker in C. You should focus on clean lines and smooth riding. It will be a blast.

EDIT: I've ridden like 9 days in C and I finally moved up when some friends started giving me a hard time jokingly. I was planning on riding the entire season in C to be honest with you. I enjoyed riding C longer than your average rider because it seemed to slow the track down mentally for me. My ego can take double digit track days riding C.

 

[Var]

i don't care if i'm the slowest guy out there. i just don't want to be a danger to anyone, or anyone to be a danger to me, and not have to slow down every few corners, or not have someone else slow down for me every few corners..that's why after all there are 3 separate groups. I don't see it as an ego thing so much as a practical decision. But i've also heard B riders can range from anyone going balls out running a 2:20 to people just riding calm 2:10's . I'll hang out in C group for as long as i feel is necessary.
I'm not gonna push it, but i'm not gonna take it slow just for the sake of it. I'll ride my own pace and see how it goes.

 

[uraniaclio]

i don't care if i'm the slowest guy out there. i just don't want to be a danger to anyone, or anyone to be a danger to me, and not have to slow down every few corners, or not have someone else slow down for me every few corners..that's why after all there are 3 separate groups. I don't see it as an ego thing so much as a practical decision. But i've also heard B riders can range from anyone going balls out running a 2:20 to people just riding calm 2:10's . I'll hang out in C group for as long as i feel is necessary.
I'm not gonna push it, but i'm not gonna take it slow just for the sake of it. I'll ride my own pace and see how it goes.

Just try C and if you feel like you're not getting anything out of it, then ask an instructor or the grid manager. B can run the entire gamut. Some B riders should be in C and some could be in A. Passing can get a bit aggressive in B and B tends to have the most crashes. I've found it to be more aggressive but more predictable than C. C can get a little unpredictable at times with riders steering out wide and braking where there's no need to but you learn to anticipate and deal with it. That being said, being the slow guy is more fun than being the fast guy. The track is more open.

 

[Var]

just thought it would be relevant to post here after my first trackday.

my impressions of c group

at first everyone pretty much starts off really slow. some people pick up the pace, and some don't. the track is no place to cruise, and there were a few people literally cruising that could have got the same experience on skyline going the speed limit.don't mean to bash anyone though . most of C group including myself vastly improved throughout the day. after all I guess that's why c group is there.
it's my own fault for not moving up to B until the last session of the day.

the difference between b and c was night and day.

c is like being on woodside rd on a weekend. u may catch a couple corners by yourself, but surely there are slower people ahead, and when u pass them there are tons more ahead. I didn't realize how much focus I was losing until I went to B


b group was cool. after I did my warm up lap I was able to pass 3 people and nobody passed me, so I was probably going the average B pace. the track felt like it was my own. It actually felt like a track instead of woodside rd.

my advice is if ur passing more than 2-3 people on every lap in C, u should go to B and have a taste. PTT was okay about group jumping and actually encouraged ppl to step up into faster groups. if B then seems too fast then tell the track coordinator ur not comfy and wanna step down. there's no pleasure being king of the hill in group C. go to B and follow faster riders and see what they're doing different. then the same up to A group eventually .

 

[Z3n]

just thought it would be relevant to post here after my first trackday.

my impressions of c group

at first everyone pretty much starts off really slow. some people pick up the pace, and some don't. the track is no place to cruise, and there were a few people literally cruising that could have got the same experience on skyline going the speed limit.don't mean to bash anyone though . most of C group including myself vastly improved throughout the day. after all I guess that's why c group is there.
it's my own fault for not moving up to B until the last session of the day.

the difference between b and c was night and day.

c is like being on woodside rd on a weekend. u may catch a couple corners by yourself, but surely there are slower people ahead, and when u pass them there are tons more ahead. I didn't realize how much focus I was losing until I went to B


b group was cool. after I did my warm up lap I was able to pass 3 people and nobody passed me, so I was probably going the average B pace. the track felt like it was my own. It actually felt like a track instead of woodside rd.

my advice is if ur passing more than 2-3 people on every lap in C, u should go to B and have a taste. PTT was okay about group jumping and actually encouraged ppl to step up into faster groups. if B then seems too fast then tell the track coordinator ur not comfy and wanna step down. there's no pleasure being king of the hill in group C. go to B and follow faster riders and see what they're doing different. then the same up to A group eventually .

Cool, glad to hear you had a good time!

 

[Grunz]

One of the things thats on my mind is what hard braking and downshifting will be like from a fast long straight into a tight turn - say like into turn 14 at thill which is going to be my first trackday soon.

The other thing is being leaned over for a long time at high speed - like turn 2 at thill.

Despite the two items above i'm not sure what speeds will be like in C group - will it feel fast or will it feel not so fast since I've been pushing it on the street in less than ideal track like visibility situations. Donno.

Finally, I'm curious if i'll be able to fry up some eggs on the asphalt at thill on July 21.

 

[Var]

grunz..turn 14 is technically a hard braking zone, but not for c-group guys like you and I. You'll be braking before the bridge in the morning, then likely at or after later on, or on another day. I would worry about 11 more. You come out of 10 and you almost immediately have to get on the brakes into 11, and it's a lower speed turn than what it looks like. Lots of people go off track on 11. There were times i came out of 10, straightened up and kinda forgot how hard i had to brake..didn't go offtrack, but one second later and i would have.

 

[uraniaclio]

One of the things thats on my mind is what hard braking and downshifting will be like from a fast long straight into a tight turn - say like into turn 14 at thill which is going to be my first trackday soon.

The other thing is being leaned over for a long time at high speed - like turn 2 at thill.

Despite the two items above i'm not sure what speeds will be like in C group - will it feel fast or will it feel not so fast since I've been pushing it on the street in less than ideal track like visibility situations. Donno.

Finally, I'm curious if i'll be able to fry up some eggs on the asphalt at thill on July 21.

Grunz,
Have your suspension set up by Dave Moss and keep an eye on the zip tie if u have stock forks. Bottoming out might be an issue if you're not smooth on the front brake and overbrake (it's a problem for me now even though I have pretty stiff stock springs).

 

[Grunz]

Thanks guys.

I've just had my suspension set up by Dave - he did a great job nad the bike feels a lot better for faster riding.