Passenger van with seats removed - legal?

[Jalopyshoppe]

I daily drive a utility body, and it's still a pickup. Countless businesses and contractors use these bodies without weight stickers or visiting weigh stations.
As far as the van, you want a cargo van. A cargo van gets commercial reg. Removing the seats from a passenger van makes a cargo van. You can get away with it if you're smart, but remember never to break more than one law at a time.
FWIW, commercial plates let you park in commercial spaces in SF. I take advantage of that when I am in commercial vehicles.

 

[Junkie]

You may find this link useful: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/c...-939ef851e288/ch13_comml_vehs.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

That is a link to the CA DMV Vehicle Industry Registration Procedures Manual, Chapter 13, Commercial Vehicles.

What you are describing seems to meet the definition of a commercial vehicle under VC section 260(a) if you making it so that it is designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property (VC section 410):


(underline added to quote from VC)
(Section 260(a))

(Section 410)

If you have changed the design, use it, or maintain it primarily for the transportation of property then it meets the definition of motor truck (a type required to be registered commercially under the code). If you don't change the design or use it or maintain it primarily for the transportation of property then it would still be a passenger vehicle.

Commercial vehicle code enforcement only a very small part of what I am involved in, and as Nick suggested a visit to your local CHP office could yield a better and more descriptive answer.

Looking through your link, I think a van that originally had seats in the back but no longer does would legally qualify as a station wagon, as long as I don't do anything beyond removing them. I can't get it to copy/paste but it's the second part of page 13-4 that defines station wagon, and the definition includes vehicles with removable seats. It appears that station wagons don't have to be registered as commercial vehicles unless owned and used by a business (which I am not).

I believe with the utility body you need to get the tonnage stickers on your doors too. I've been researching a bit as I want to put a flatbed or at least at custom tube bed on my Toyota.

I'd never heard of that but I suppose it's possible. Then again, as with the weigh station thing, I doubt it's ever enforced. I'm pretty sure my truck has been a CA truck since new (1973) and also pretty sure it's never had stickers on it. I see plenty of trucks with utility beds and most don't have stickers

I daily drive a utility body, and it's still a pickup. Countless businesses and contractors use these bodies without weight stickers or visiting weigh stations.
As far as the van, you want a cargo van. A cargo van gets commercial reg. Removing the seats from a passenger van makes a cargo van. You can get away with it if you're smart, but remember never to break more than one law at a time.
FWIW, commercial plates let you park in commercial spaces in SF. I take advantage of that when I am in commercial vehicles.

While that's certainly how the law is enforced, it doesn't appear to be the letter of the law (based on VC 471, which I posted above).

As I said, I'd expect CHP to be unhappy if I pulled into a weigh station, but the utility bed explicitly makes it no longer a pickup, and still a motor truck, and therefore required to pull into them. I don't know why it is that it isn't enforced, though.

I just asked a friend with a Ram Promaster City (a small cargo van, basically what I'm considering) and it has standard passenger car plates (1ABC234, obviously not the actual plate but the correct number/letter configuration). No side windows behind the two front doors, no seats behind the two front seats. He purchased it new in CA last year. I don't know if it was improperly registered or whether small vans don't count as trucks or what, because it appears to meet the legal definition.

(file photo)

 

[KrustyKruser]

I found this document while searching. I was wrong about the door tonnage stickers. They are not needed until a vehicle is at least 10,000 lb GVWR. But you are on to something with the wagon definition.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/f93f514b-ffa6-46cd-9da7-939ef851e288/ch13_comml_vehs.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

 

[deathbug74]

so...some thoughts.

it seems like there's some grey area in the "primarily designed, used or maintained for..." wording. for a minivan with removable seats, the scenario of temporarily removing and storing the seats on cargo weekends, and having them installed the rest of the time for (ostensibly) daily driver duty. leaves a pretty solid argument that it's NOT primarily "used or maintained" for cargo duty, and the design of the van and interior have not been changed.

add chock(s) mounted to a sheet of plywood, possibly with something (hooks or bolts?) to interface with the seat mounts to prevent movement, and you've got cargo usability, without giving up a fair argument of staying within the letter of the law.

that said, i'm not a LEO, and it'd be pretty contingent on the 'removable' seats to maintain the argument that it hasn't been modified. if they're 'permanently' mounted, and have to be unbolted, the whole thing gets a tad shakier. also depends how much you want to push

 

[afm199]

One bike? Minivan is ok. Two bikes? Get a half ton cargo van. Early 2000s are cheap. You will discover very quickly that minivans are called mini for a reason. My E150 gets 17 mpg and carries two bikes, spares, me, my dog, leathers, parts and has room left over.

 

[Junkie]

One bike? Minivan is ok. Two bikes? Get a half ton cargo van. Early 2000s are cheap. You will discover very quickly that minivans are called mini for a reason. My E150 gets 17 mpg and carries two bikes, spares, me, my dog, leathers, parts and has room left over.

my friend's Promaster City is smaller than most minivans and carries two bikes and everything needed for two people at the track (easy up, cooler, chairs, gear, etc) no problem

I'd be more inclined to go Chevy than Ford, but I was also considering full size rather than just mini (although there isn't always much difference in size).

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

my friend's Promaster City is smaller than most minivans and carries two bikes and everything needed for two people at the track (easy up, cooler, chairs, gear, etc) no problem

I'd be more inclined to go Chevy than Ford, but I was also considering full size rather than just mini (although there isn't always much difference in size).

Careful with the Chevy/Ford argument!

Have you priced vans to see what's actually cheaper (passenger van vs cargo). Also, if you tow,you may reconsider the van vs truck argument. Also, consider a small enclosed trailer instead of a different vehicle.

 

[zelig]

Showing my outsider ignorance here: my head is swimming a bit from this thread. I suppose the CVC simplifies things in the sense that every pickup is commercial, but it baffles me a bit that a 3500 Suburban might cost less to register than an early Tacoma shortbed. Are we talking about $100, or hundreds?

Does vintage affect the equation enough to be worthwhile? For example, a 2000 Tundra (old+commercial) vs a 2013 Club Wagon (newer+noncommercial)?

 

[Junkie]

Showing my outsider ignorance here: my head is swimming a bit from this thread. I suppose the CVC simplifies things in the sense that every pickup is commercial, but it baffles me a bit that a 3500 Suburban might cost less to register than an early Tacoma shortbed. Are we talking about $100, or hundreds?

Does vintage affect the equation enough to be worthwhile? For example, a 2000 Tundra (old+commercial) vs a 2013 Club Wagon (newer+noncommercial)?

There are multiple components to registration cost.

For non-commercial, value is the only real variable IIRC.

For commercial, both value and weight fees play a role.

I don't think year plays a role (other than in determining value) but I could be remembering wrong.

But yes, for equal value, a small pickup will cost more to register than a giant SUV.

 

[Junkie]

Careful with the Chevy/Ford argument!

Have you priced vans to see what's actually cheaper (passenger van vs cargo). Also, if you tow,you may reconsider the van vs truck argument. Also, consider a small enclosed trailer instead of a different vehicle.

Even though my truck is a 3/4 ton I have yet to tow anything with it (in the 3+ years that I've owned it)... kinda sad. The only reason I ended up with a 3/4 ton is that I was looking for a truck and a friend offered it to me, and the smog exempt part is very convenient.

Of course, if I do get rid of it I'll have a hell of a time finding another smog exempt truck with a utility bed.

And yes, Chevy vs Ford is a personal preference, wasn't meaning to start an argument there. I don't think there's much debate about who made the better engine in that era, but I know for the 4WD trucks the Ford was the better chassis.

 

[mbrick]

Showing my outsider ignorance here: my head is swimming a bit from this thread. I suppose the CVC simplifies things in the sense that every pickup is commercial, but it baffles me a bit that a 3500 Suburban might cost less to register than an early Tacoma shortbed. Are we talking about $100, or hundreds?

Does vintage affect the equation enough to be worthwhile? For example, a 2000 Tundra (old+commercial) vs a 2013 Club Wagon (newer+noncommercial)?

The big reg impact on commercial plates are the weight classes. Took a while to find on the DMV site, but for your viewing pleasure:

Up to 2999 - $9
3000-4000 - $24
4001-5000 - $80
5001-6000 - $154
6001-7000 - $204

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/c...42ba-b3c4-f6b92ae032c9/ffvr27.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

So a 5400lb 4x4 F-150 is going to have $154 added, but a 3,800lb 4 cyl Frontier only $24. In one case it will double the annual registration renewal, another only add 10-20%.

Yes, it's rather annoying a privately owned truck will have that added every year, when a massive suburban weighs just as much.

Year has no impact, the only two variables are:
1. VLF fee (0.64% of the value you tell the state you bought it for, depreciates on a yearly schedule)
2. Weight fee if commercial, following the table

 

[zelig]

Thanks, y'all.

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

Probably not the place to talk utility beds, but you'd be surprised how commonplace they are. My diesel 4wd utility bed falls into pre smog turf, and they're plentiful if you look. Lots of school districts run pre 98 ford diesel utility trucks. Most have minimal miles and didn't get used hard. They're coming into the private sector cheaply.

 

[Alan_Hepburn]

The big reg impact on commercial plates are the weight classes. Took a while to find on the DMV site, but for your viewing pleasure:

Up to 2999 - $9
3000-4000 - $24
4001-5000 - $80
5001-6000 - $154
6001-7000 - $204

As a footnote: the above are based on the unladen weight of the vehicle, not the GVWR. Once the vehicle gets into the Class 4 and above (F450 for instance) it then moves into the regulations in the CVRA and you must declare either a GVWR or GCWR for the vehicle, and pay the appropriate fee. Then you get a sticker to place on the front fender that shows your declared weight.

 

[jao]

Looking through your link, I think a van that originally had seats in the back but no longer does would legally qualify as a station wagon, as long as I don't do anything beyond removing them. I can't get it to copy/paste but it's the second part of page 13-4 that defines station wagon, and the definition includes vehicles with removable seats. It appears that station wagons don't have to be registered as commercial vehicles unless owned and used by a business (which I am not).

I understand the confusion, but no, a van is not a station wagon. Depending on the configuration and/or use a van can be registered as commercial or non-commercial (e.g. a Honda Odyssey could be registered as commercial if it was primarily used to transport property or non-commercial if it was primarily used to transport people (not for hire)).

I just asked a friend with a Ram Promaster City (a small cargo van, basically what I'm considering) and it has standard passenger car plates (1ABC234, obviously not the actual plate but the correct number/letter configuration). No side windows behind the two front doors, no seats behind the two front seats. He purchased it new in CA last year. I don't know if it was improperly registered or whether small vans don't count as trucks or what, because it appears to meet the legal definition.

Looking at the photos and description from the ramtrucks.com website for the Promaster series of vans, they are designed primarily for the transportation of property.

 

[Junkie]

I understand the confusion, but no, a van is not a station wagon. Depending on the configuration and/or use a van can be registered as commercial or non-commercial (e.g. a Honda Odyssey could be registered as commercial if it was primarily used to transport property or non-commercial if it was primarily used to transport people (not for hire)).



Looking at the photos and description from the ramtrucks.com website for the Promaster series of vans, they are designed primarily for the transportation of property.

I agree that the Promaster City seems to be intended primarily for property, which is why it surprised me that he has non-commercial plates.

A “station wagon” is a dual purpose vehicle designed for the transportation of persons and also designed in such a manner that the seats may be removed or folded out of the way for the purpose of increasing the property carrying space within the vehicle.  The term includes, but is not limited to, types of vehicles which carry the trade names of station wagon, estate wagon, town and country wagon, and country sedan.  A vehicle used primarily for the transportation of cadavers to or from a funeral home, mortuary, or burial site is not a station wagon.

Why doesn't a passenger van with folding or removable seats qualify? It appears to meet the definition unless I'm missing something. I was pretty sure the state considered a Suburban (with folding rear seats) to be a station wagon, and don't see how a van is any different.

I just scanned through the entire vehicle code definitions section: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?division=1.&lawCode=VEH and the only places where "van" appears are in reference to vanpool.

 

[jao]

Why doesn't a passenger van with folding or removable seats qualify? It appears to meet the definition unless I'm missing something. I was pretty sure the state considered a Suburban (with folding rear seats) to be a station wagon, and don't see how a van is any different.

A station wagon is body style of a vehicle designed to primarily be a passenger vehicle. A van is a different body style vehicle. A van can be designed to be primarily a passenger vehicle. The vehicle code is not the only place definitions and explinations are found. Explinations are found in the original bills that created the code, bills that ammend the code, other codes, regulations, and common use definitions (case law has reiterated this in many cases). Sometimes definitions are found in government operating manuals that reflect clarification through case law.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.