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penal code for loitering?

rritterson

rritterson

wish I was the bike
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Location
SF
Moto(s)
None now :( Many previously.
Can anyone point me to the relevant sections regarding loitering?

So far, I've found that you can't loiter on private or industrial property marked with signage, you can't loiter with intent to solicit prostitution, you can't loiter by a public toilet with intent to solicit a lewd act, you can't loiter in front of a place that sells or serves alcohol for purposes of getting someone to buy you some, and you can't loiter with intent to commit a drug related crime.

You can't loiter around a school after you've been asked to leave

You can't loiter in any private place without permission of the owner. You also can't prowl while loitering.

You also can't loiter from place to place in public *and* refuse to give police reasonable identification if public safety demands ID. (penal code 647e).

The reason I ask is that I've heard, anecdotally, that some m/c leos shoo'ed everyone away from the wall claiming that they were loitering. None of what I've found so far would indicate that could be true unless the riders intended to solicit prostitution or commit a drug crime, or if they refused to give the police ID.

Technically, since the wall is not part of the roadway (i assume), it would be on UC property. Does that make it private property?
 
The cops probably shoo people away from the Wall as they are trying to mitigate the chance of accidents. There isn't much space adjacent to the side of the road and lots of traffic traverses the area.
 
rritterson said:
Technically, since the wall is not part of the roadway (i assume), it would be on UC property. Does that make it private property?
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The side of the roadway is still considered the "Highway". See definitions in the link I posted above.

As for if it is UC property, I don't work in that area so I can't answer that.
 
PC 647(h).

(h) Who loiters, prowls, or wanders upon the private property of
another, at any time, without visible or lawful business with the
owner or occupant. As used in this subdivision, "loiter" means to
delay or linger without a lawful purpose for being on the property
and for the purpose of committing a crime as opportunity may be
discovered.

All of the 647 sections (or most) are public disturbance sections, read them all if you wish...

In general, if you're hanging out on private property (a store front, a parking lot, etc) and you don't have permission of the owner; Or lawful business, you can be asked to leave (or cited).
 
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FWIW, In 1983, 647(e) PC was found to be unconstitutional in the KOLENDER v. LAWSON case out of San Diego, CA. Why it is still on the books, I don't know. [DETAILS]
 
Thanks JPM, for the links. I searched for the terms loiter and loitering and all of the results I found are in my initial post.

I was actually up there today. Someone who was shooed said that the barrier and wall proper are on UC property. Thus, if you are leaning on them, you are on said property. Since permission to pass or be present on the property can be revoked at any time, they can make you leave.

OTOH, the pavement is not UC property so those same laws don't apply. Basically, it forced everyone off the wall and made them stand up if they wanted to stay. Keep in mind this is from a non-lawyer non-LEO.
 
I have done some research in this matter, as it pertains to property I police. I received notification from some BARFERS last week regarding OPD motor units up on GPB telling people that they could not linger at the rock wall...as it constitutes loitering.

This is going to make me unpopular in the LEO community, but here goes. As far as loitering:
1. as MM4L mentioned, loitering laws have been found to be unconstitutional in regards to just being in an area. There has to be a reason to stop the loitering...ie...criminal activity is occurring or is about to occur.

2. 647(e) PC is a loitering law, but it is only to be used to keep criminal activity from occurring, an officer can demand your name and business, but after that, if no violation of law has occurred, then sorry, you get to continue doing what you were doing.

3. I looked through the Oakland Municipal codes...nope, there is no loitering law that covers the rock wall area. There are Muni codes that cover areas where explosives are stored and where illegal drug trafficking is occuring, but nothing that states you can't hang out on UCB property.

4. As soon as you leave the roadway, sorry, you are on UCB property. We have no laws that force people to leave that area. During certain hours of the day (usually after 10 pm) we conduct security checks for criminal activity at the turn outs on GPB, but that is for safety reasons...at night time, some wierd things happen up there.

So, in closing, unless someone can show me some applicable laws that specifically cover the Rock Wall area....you were given bad info by the police up there. When put in the same situation again, very politely, ask what code section they are pushing and then if it really comes down to it....I would actually take the cite and fight it in court...kicking the officers ass in court would show him that a bluff is merely a bluff...not law. I hate when officers make a bluff on someone then have to pull some bullshit of their ass to back it up when they cant show a law to back up their claim....UGH!

brash

if you have any further questions, feel free to contact me up there, as I'm available Sun-Wed, 2pm-midnight...and I frequent that area.
 
Brash47 said:
...kicking the officers ass in court would show him that a bluff is merely a bluff...not law. I hate when officers make a bluff on someone then have to pull some bullshit of their ass to back it up when they cant show a law to back up their claim....UGH!
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It is called being buffaloed. The cops tell you they will cite you if you don't disperse and you leave to avoid their wrath. Mission accomplished... loitering group of no-gooders vacated... on to a well earned break with overpriced lattes at *$'s!

The buffalo tactic is part of the job... the key is knowing what to say to get the job done and not pushing it too far... so far that you have to back up your bark with some bite.

If you want to stop it, tell the OPD cops that you think they are really cool, but last you heard, the wall and adjacent parking are technically and actually University property and unless or until it is posted otherwise, you would like to peaceably gather and relax there to pay respects to your dead friends and rest before you continue your leisurely ride. If you feel really ballsy, you might also ask if they kick people out of the cemetery for loitering there too.

Going to The Wall is a Bay Area tradition and as far as I know, no one is being hurt or even inconvenienced by the activities. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. If that were not the case, I have no doubt The Wall and immediate area would be a posted no trespassing area and/or there would be the necessary no-loitering laws and signs in place to abate it.

No doubt, someone is complaining about the presence up there and the cops are just responding. Just because someone is upset does not mean what you are doing there is illegal. :hand
 
Now I realize that OPD Officers are peace officers anywhere in the state- but aren't they poaching a bit too far outside of Oakland?

I'd be a little upset if I was an Oakland resident and the cops I'm paying for are out playing outside of town.

If I'm up there, and I'm BS'd with a threat like that- I will request a citation. :|

As far as OPD muni codes... I don't think they could cite for a violation of the muni code outside the city of Oakland.
 
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Brash47 said:
4. As soon as you leave the roadway, sorry, you are on UCB property.
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So the wall itself and I'm guessing the guard rail next to it are all on UCB property and that's good but the turn out where we actually park the bikes, who's is that? If they can't write a correct cite for someone hanging out on UCB property, is there something else they could possibly write us up for having to do with our bikes and where they are parked?

Also, another question, say OPD requests that you leave, you decline and receive the citation...then what? I'm assuming you still have to leave so as not to be taken to jail correct?

Hopefully it was just a one time thing and we don't have to find out the hard way.
 
Ezekiel said:
Also, another question, say OPD requests that you leave, you decline and receive the citation...then what? I'm assuming you still have to leave so as not to be taken to jail correct?
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Good question...

BTW- The food at Santa Rita sucks :laughing
 
Dragon, technically, it is in Oakland....so don't throw that in the officer's face. When I write cites up there, I cite people into Oakland traffic court. They own the roadway there, so they are well within their jurisdiction to enforce laws, including UCB laws.

brash
 
Brash47 said:
Dragon, technically, it is in Oakland....so don't throw that in the officer's face. When I write cites up there, I cite people into Oakland traffic court. They own the roadway there, so they are well within their jurisdiction to enforce laws, including UCB laws.

brash
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I stand corrected- thx. No- I wouldn't throw that one out there, otherwise I'd expect to be charged with contempt of cop in addition:laughing

(I thought the wall was in the PRB, I need to get an Thomas Bros. book)
 
I know that Regents delegates can revoke the priviledge of being allowed onto UCB property at any time (and therefore cause you to be trespassing if you don't leave promptly).

However - do OPD cops have that authority? AFAIU only UCBPD, or UCB administrative people, would have that authority. So you could say (essentially): I'm on UCB property, not public; there's no law that prohibits me from being here; I'm not doing anything otherwise illegal; you don't have authority over my friendly relationship with UCB; ergo please buzz off because you don't have jurisdiction.
 
Funny, I've been hanging around the wall for years and never had any trouble. Wonder what the deal is.
 
Sharky said:
Funny, I've been hanging around the wall for years and never had any trouble. Wonder what the deal is.
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Pressure from the residents of skyline wanting blood for the death of a bicyclist named Ed Weiss... :|
 
647(h) PC: Loitering in public

or

602(L) PC: If is posted, and you are loitering on private propery.
 
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