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Proper Technique for Mountain Switchbacks

D

DaSharknSJ

New member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Location
San Jose
Moto(s)
'08 KTM Super Duke 990
Name
Eric
What's the proper technique for dealing with super tight switchbacks with immediate elevation changes?

I did a Mount Hamilton loop this morning (up Calaveras Rd, through Livermore to Mines Rd, and back across Alum Rock), and was getting hung up on the really tight mountain switch backs up and down Mount Hamilton. Either I'd come in too hot and brake through the turn; or I'd come putting in like a Vespa and get caught off-guard by the steep uphill after the switchback. I'm pretty religious about staying in my lane (don't want to become someone's hood ornament), so there's not a ton of room to outside-inside-outside. Should I just lean into the turn harder? Move my butt over to the opposite side of the seat and counter-weight the turn? Better throttle control? What's the scoop?

I'm all ears,
Eric

PS - When I run for mayor, one of my platform positions will be repaving that whole section of roadway and paying some kids to sweep up that sneaky gravel. I had a sketchy moment when the front end broke loose from hitting some gravel that I couldn't see till the last second on a blind right hander. Good thing it hooked back up, or I'd have brand new wrecked bike and have seen the inside of an ambulance for the first time in a non-professional capacity. Yikes.
 
I'm getting closer and closer to making a rig on my friends truck to sweep the road way clean.

Love 130

that is just a sketchy road. gravel all through out the year, went up there just recently 2 weeks ago and found the least amount of gravel I have ever seen up there............

Its technical on the SJ side and thorough knowledge on the LM side is definitely beneficial.
 
Summertime (now) is the cleanest, dryest, smoothest that this road is gonna get. Learn to love it's charm and learn that gravel lurks in every turn. It's a fun road!

Anyways, here's what I would look at if I was facing these issues:

"Either I'd come in too hot and brake through the turn; or I'd come putting in like a Vespa and get caught off-guard by the steep uphill after the switchback."
--The "putting vespa" effect sounds like you might be in too high of a gear and maybe coasting as you approach the turn. Perhaps riding one gear lower as you approach the turn would give you the torque needed for the uphill section. Does that sound like it might help? Since there are so many blind turns with deadly drop-offs, I wouldn't want to come into any of those turns "too hot" --I'd rather come in too slow than too fast.

"outside-inside-outside"
You say there's not much room for that, but you also make it sound like you go into the oncomming lane as you do it (maybe I misunderstood). Anyway, I do try to enter the turn from the outer edge of the lane (within reason for the circumstances) and then put the bike closest to the inner part of the turn somewhere near the apex, and exit the turn near the outer edge of the lane. I agree the lanes are narrow, but I don't know a better way to execute a turn than that method. Making one quick steering input to make the bike turn can help (see Keith Code books for more on this). Oh, and don't go into the oncoming lane in a turn (ever!) thx :)

"Should I just lean into the turn harder? Move my butt over to the opposite side of the seat and counter-weight the turn? Better throttle control? What's the scoop?"
It's not the lean of the bike that makes the bike turn quickly. You need to move the bars to make the bike turn. Turning the bars makes the bike lean (lean is a side-effect, not a cause). So, I'd ask myself why I can't turn the bars more. It could be that the bars are being turned to slowly, or that the bike is in a poor lane location, or something else.

Counter-weighting?
In a left turn, you will generally have your body on the left side of the bike. If the turn is very slow, then you may need your body on the opposite (right) side of the bike to keep the bike from falling on its side at slow speed. Mt. Ham has "fast" and "slow" turns, so you might use both techniques on that road. Sportbikes are very awkward with the 2nd technique, but upright & naked bikes are usually very comfortable with both styles.

Good luck. :ride
 
Sir, may I suggest slowing the fuck down? I might also suggest that you consider what you are doing with vision and think about if you can figure out a way to look further through the corner. Sounds like you are being surprised a lot and this is often from a couple things, one being going too fast for conditions and the other being looking too close to the front wheel and not far enough through the corner. Hamilton is non trivial and the price for even small errors can be rather large.
 
This type of road really stressed me out before I got the Total Control book. The Total Control clinics made them wicked good fun for me. You might check both out.

I guess the big things are;
Vision; make sure you are looking as far through the turn as possible. This is key.

Go the speed you are comfortable at and not getting stressed from, no prizes on the street...

Be in the right gear for your speed, so you don't have to down shift in the turn.

Slow in fast out.

Stay wide and slow until you can see the exit of the turn.
 
Once I get out of the little valley before the final push up the mountain, I'm pretty much in 1st or 2nd the whole way up. Especially near the top, just 1st. No need to speed up a mountain with no railings, no run out, and hundreds of feet of cliffs.

I find on the tight turns uphill, revving high and feathering the clutch helps stability. On the way down, going in nice and slow and trailing the brakes does the same.
 
As you're approaching the turn, set your entry speed carefully. Pick a spot on the ground where you want to turn the bike (usually later is better), and then focus on the turn, keeping track of your turn-in point with your peripheral vision. Once you arrive at your turn in point, counter-steer the bike assertively until you're on your intended path of travel. It's important to be looking through the turn before you steer, or you won't steer the bike onto the correct line. Finally, roll on the throttle. But make sure the bike is pointed before you really start to roll on. In those tight turns, rolling on too early or too much will make you go wide.
 
DaSharknSJ said:
What's the proper technique for dealing with super tight switchbacks with immediate elevation changes?

I did a Mount Hamilton loop this morning (up Calaveras Rd, through Livermore to Mines Rd, and back across Alum Rock), and was getting hung up on the really tight mountain switch backs up and down Mount Hamilton. Either I'd come in too hot and brake through the turn; or I'd come putting in like a Vespa and get caught off-guard by the steep uphill after the switchback. I'm pretty religious about staying in my lane (don't want to become someone's hood ornament), so there's not a ton of room to outside-inside-outside. Should I just lean into the turn harder? Move my butt over to the opposite side of the seat and counter-weight the turn? Better throttle control? What's the scoop?

I'm all ears,
Eric
Click to expand...
I know exactly what turn (2 of them on the San Jose side eastbound) that just mess with me every time. At least the outside is into the wall and not the drop-off.Also all ears here. And I take it nice and slow.
 
Those were the 2 corners to which I was referring, it looks almost the same when I negotiate them. They frustrate me, but I always ride solo on that road, so I didn't know if I was taking them like a retard. I feel better about myself now, not at your expense.
 
Go farther

That is one hairy road. Those switch backs or more or less walls than they are turns.

Have you been down the other side of the mountain? It rocks! Just continue towards Livermore when come over the top. It is about another 4 miles of steep switchbacks (1st gear only), then it opens up to nice wide turns and clean paths pretty much until you reach Livermore. About 40 miles of it too! Nothing but farms, so basically no cars (no guarantees though).
 
weight on pegs, utilize the road surface.

I see berms everywhere, ruts, crowns, poor repairs, etc..all can be used to your advantage.
Take a weekend dirt rider's clinic, learn to embrace not fear gravel, wet, and filth

I suck on prepped smooth surfaces give me a nasty, twisty, unmaintained, filthy little mountain road any day!
 
Mt. Hamilton is tricky, not advised for newbs and a workout even for experienced riders. It's also not a place to try to set lap records - there's often sand on the front side and invisible gravel on the backside, and the backside surface breaks loose easily. Very steep switchback turns, long falls waiting for those who go off-road, etc.

Going uphill, what I'll do is make sure I'm in a low gear running high revs, and I'll stay on the gas while turning after entering wide. The key here is, you don't want to drop the bike from too low a speed and you don't want to run wide at the exit into oncoming traffic to avoid dropping the bike, so you don't want to enter on the inside and you want to keep the throttle on. Vision is critical here, forget about turning points or other track-related terms - crank your neck way around and look at what's ahead before you start doing any turning, these kinds of turns require the most advance planning since you really can drop your bike at the tightest point of the switchback (I've done it myself...).

Going downhill, I'll get all my braking done while straight up and down, and then gently trail off the front as I go through the turn with the throttle off until I start to straighten up. I'll sometimes use the rear brake in this situation, especially if there's sand or gravel on the road. I find downhill switchbacks easier, but you need to slow way down on the entry or else you risk running off-road or into oncoming traffic.

In super-tight turns like this, there's no point in hanging off like a racer, and you might feel better pushing the bike down dirt-bike style instead.
 
JeffKoch said:
Vision is critical here, forget about turning points or other track-related terms - crank your neck way around and look at what's ahead before you start doing any turning, these kinds of turns require the most advance planning since you really can drop your bike at the tightest point of the switchback (I've done it myself...).
Click to expand...
I think going wide is more common than dropping the bike in these turns. Dropping the bike only happens when you stay off the throttle too long. And it can happen; I've come close to that point, but if you get back on the throttle the bike will stay up. Gotta disagree about turning points, Jeff. I've found them extremely useful on the street, especially for this type of turn. When I'm approaching these turns, I visualize my line through the turn, set my entry point, and crank my head around to look through the turn like you said. Once I know I've hit my entry point, I don't have to worry about my line. Vision takes care of that. I can just look up the road and get on the throttle. Anyways, I'm sure there are many valid techniques for tackling these turns, but I don't see how you can advise against the use of turning points. There's doesn't seem to be any disadvantage to using them.
 
RhythmRider said:
Gotta disagree about turning points, Jeff. I've found them extremely useful on the street, especially for this type of turn. When I'm approaching these turns, I visualize my line through the turn, set my entry point, and crank my head around to look through the turn like you said. Once I know I've hit my entry point, I don't have to worry about my line. Vision takes care of that. I can just look up the road and get on the throttle. Anyways, I'm sure there are many valid techniques for tackling these turns, but I don't see how you can advise against the use of turning points. There's doesn't seem to be any disadvantage to using them.
Click to expand...

To expand on turn points on the street a bit, I think they're useful, but I apply the idea a little bit differently.

On the track, you're going to make lots of trips around each turn and can establish turn points that are reliable and meet all of the objectives you have for the turn. They serve the purpose of letting you concentrate on other things (like entry speed) on the approach to the corner, they give you a place to turn the bike that serves to place you onto your preferred line and they tend to facilitate getting the bike turned quickly (as opposed to groping your way into the corner) so you can get back to the gas. If there is something you don't like about your line, the turn point is one of the things you can adjust to get onto a line you like better.

Not all of the above apply on the street. Instead of lap times, we're concerned about taking a line that will keep us from running wide, going over the centerline and that facilitates good throttle control. On the street, selecting a turn point still has value because the rider knows he doesn't have to worry about turning the bike until he arrives at this turn point. It frees his attention to worry about entry speed, surface and many other variables.

But what if he picks the wrong turn point? Generally, if the turn point isn't workable, it's either going to be too deep or too early.

If it's too deep, there is no real safety consequence; it just means you thought the turn was sharper than it really is and you probably slowed down more than you needed to. Unless you're trying to improve your Mt. Hamilton lap time, it's not a big deal.

If the turn point is too early, the good news is, the rider didn't exchange vows with it. He can simply turn later. The original "provisional" turn point still did the job of letting the rider concentrate on other things before he got to the turn. He knew that he wouldn't need to turn the bike until at least that turn point and he was able to set his entry speed, look as far into the turn as he could see, check for debris on the surface, fiddle with his video camera, or whatever else needed tending to. Now he arrives at his original turn point and decides he can't see far enough into the turn to commit, notices the turn tightens up, etc. If the TP is too early, then by definition there is room to push it deeper, so he can run it in until he finds a good spot.
 
Yeah that does definitely expand on the idea. I may have been too brief to really explain my use of turn points on the street, but my actual behavior seems to match your description pretty well. If I had spent more time on my post, I would have liked it to come out looking like yours!
 
My advice on those turns. Somewhat like most of the advice here:
1. Look THROUGH the turn, not into it
2. Watch your entry speed
3. Start Wide
4. Pick a deep turn in point
5. Turn the bike quickly
6. Get on the gas to stabilize the bike (or it will want to fall over)

The most important is #1. If you can see the exit, you'll naturally pick a better line. It's also one of the keys when using the Vanishing Point technique (which is all I use on the street regardless of how well I know the road).

Going in deep and turning the bike quickly go hand in hand. If you aren't comfortable turning the bike quickly, then going in deep will make you run wide. Going in deep also puts you in a better position to see the exit (back to #1).

I've almost dropped my bike in one of those same corners my first time up about a year ago, mostly because I was in too high of a gear. Make sure you run in a gear that keeps the revs high so you've got the power on tap ready to go.

Hope this helps. Happy riding :ride :thumbup
 
Canyon Stan said:
My advice on those turns. Somewhat like most of the advice here:
1. Look THROUGH the turn, not into it
2. Watch your entry speed
3. Start Wide
4. Pick a deep turn in point
5. Turn the bike quickly
6. Get on the gas to stabilize the bike (or it will want to fall over)

The most important is #1. If you can see the exit, you'll naturally pick a better line. It's also one of the keys when using the Vanishing Point technique (which is all I use on the street regardless of how well I know the road).

Going in deep and turning the bike quickly go hand in hand. If you aren't comfortable turning the bike quickly, then going in deep will make you run wide. Going in deep also puts you in a better position to see the exit (back to #1).

I've almost dropped my bike in one of those same corners my first time up about a year ago, mostly because I was in too high of a gear. Make sure you run in a gear that keeps the revs high so you've got the power on tap ready to go.

Hope this helps. Happy riding :ride :thumbup
Click to expand...

This is mostly right on, but there are a couple of details above that I'd amend.

The first is the statement, "Look THROUGH the turn, not into it." That may or may not work out the way you intend; it does for some riders, while others end up turning the bike too much when they look all the way to the exit of a hairpin turn. The result is getting too close to the inside edge of the turn. I've even seen riders put their wheels in the dirt from doing this. I would instead suggest looking at the next place you want to point the bike. Once you get the bike pointed, you do want to look farther into the turn.

Secondly, not being willing (or able) to turn the bike fast only results in the bike going wide if the rider gets in too fast. Your point would be correct if a rider entered a turn so fast that they cannot get the bike turned in time. The reality is that most riders (on their own) are going to set their entry speed according to their notion of how fast they are able to steer. For many turns, your steering rate places an absolute limit on how fast you can enter the turn.
 
tzrider said:
This is mostly right on, but there are a couple of details above that I'd amend.

The first is the statement, "Look THROUGH the turn, not into it." That may or may not work out the way you intend; it does for some riders, while others end up turning the bike too much when they look all the way to the exit of a hairpin turn. The result is getting too close to the inside edge of the turn. I've even seen riders put their wheels in the dirt from doing this. I would instead suggest looking at the next place you want to point the bike. Once you get the bike pointed, you do want to look farther into the turn.

Secondly, not being willing (or able) to turn the bike fast only results in the bike going wide if the rider gets in too fast. Your point would be correct if a rider entered a turn so fast that they cannot get the bike turned in time. The reality is that most riders (on their own) are going to set their entry speed according to their notion of how fast they are able to steer. For many turns, your steering rate places an absolute limit on how fast you can enter the turn.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I was really trying to K.I.S.S. The less you have to think about the easier it usually is. I could have explained that ideally you (from Keith Code) 2-Step through a turn (keep your eyes 2 steps ahead of where you are).

If we break the turn into parts:
Braking, turn-in, apex & exit

When I'm done braking I should be looking at the apex.
When I'm at the turn-in, I should be looking at the exit.
Basically, your immediate next point in the turn is seen peripherally.
In a sense, looking "through" the turn, not at the exit necessarily.

As far as my point about turning quickly, I think you took the statement out of context. At some point if you're going slow enough . . you can turn on a dime (or the kick stand) :laughing

My main point there is about the depth in which you decide to turn in. You can go in deeper if you can turn the bike quicker, there are limits of course.

Also, my second tip is, watch your speed. I never know if I'm going too fast for a turn until I get a chance to look through it. If I can't see all the way through, I should still be slowing down (or at least maintaining throttle at a slow speed).
 
Thanks for the Replies

Awesome advice guys! I think that I've been in one gear too high and looking too much at what's happening 20 feet in front of my front tire and not through the turn. I appreciate that, as a newb, I was able to ask a honest question and not get my head chewed off.

Back to Mt Hamilton tomorrow for me.
 
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